HRWiki:STUFF/Archive/4 branches

[edit] Legalize STUFF

From: 4 branches
Posted on: 02:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Arguments for:

1. While TBC probably would not directly reference marijuana use in a toon, the similarities between the shirt in the toon and the well-known "Legalize" T-shirts are obvious. The character Homestar portrays is (perhaps subliminally) associated with an underclass of losers by virtue of this similarity.
2. 

   

   A comparison
   It just looks so similar. Sure, ones an actual plant and the other's a handprint, but if you look at them side-to-side (see image) they look so similar it's almost undeniable.
3. Don't forget that "Legalize" could also refer to marijuana's medical uses. Also, TBC have directly referenced crack cocaine.
4. Re arg against 3: this is why it was worded to take into account the character Homestar is portraying. While we cannot say for certain it is a definite reference, looking at all the facts leads many here to the conclusion that is is very likely intentional. Now that the wording is changed, that aspect is not as clear, but the resulting conclusion after considering the whole of the scene is no different.
5. Re: arg against 3, the presence of this fact under "Real World References" is sufficient to indicate it's seen as a reference. Wording need not be explicit.

Arguments against:

1. T-shirts advocating the legalization of marijuana are common, but this particular T-shirt is pretty obscure. I couldn't even find it on a Google search. This seems entirely a coincidence.
2. When TBC have referenced drugs before, they have made it pretty obvious.
3. The current wording indicates that they're similar but makes no claim that the similarity is intentional. If it's unintentional, it's not noteworthy, at least in this case.

Additional comments:

• See Talk:4 branches#Legalization? for discussion.
• Can we get a reword? It's obviously not a sure thing that this is a reference, or else we wouldn't be STUFFing it. Let's just say that the shirts look strikingly similar to each other especially given the stereotype Homestar is portraying.
  • I weakened it a little to "very likely a reference". I don't think we should weaken it further, though. If the shirts are merely similar, I don't think it's worth noting.
    • I put it back, because that makes it seem like we're unsure.
      • Fair enough.
  • Consider this as a better wording, more closely based on the suggestion
  • I accept the fact but disagree with the "especially considering the stereotype Homestar is portraying" bit.
    • I removed that part.
      • While I can see a reason to remove it for its grammatical failings, the fact which has been being voted on included a mention that the character Homestar portrays is a slacker/loser/bad boyfriend, which is in part expressed to the viewer with this shirt. That sense should be returned to the fact.
        • I'm not so sure. It seems like that would cross the line from pointing out the reference to explaining the joke.
• Re: arg against #3: I think the current wording is appropriate. For starters, the resemblance is quite striking: the coloring (right down to the hue of the green) and the shape and placement of the elements are almost identical. The hand even looks kina like a leaf. I'm fairly comfortable in saying that this was an inside joke that we caught. The wording implies that it's a reference but gives some wiggle room just in case (I hesitate to state outright that they are in fact making a drug reference). If we are wrong, the wording allows us to point out the similarity, which I believe would be notable even if it's just a coincidence.
  • Technically, the current wording doesn't imply that it's a reference — it can easily be read as saying that it's a coincidence. I agree with your hesitation to say that TBC made a drug reference, but I think it's better to be honest and say that we think it's intentional than to suggest that it could just as easily be coincidental. We rarely list coincidences, and I'm hesitant to list a drug-related coincidence if the majority isn't sure it's intentional. I would prefer a compromise wording, along the lines of "it's likely a reference" (note above that a supporter even declined that wording for being too weak, even though it is stronger than what we currently have).
    • Then again, its inclusion in the "real world references" section indicates, obviously, that we feel it is a reference.
      • Hmm... that makes sense. Then, I think I can accept the current wording.
      • It just seems too much of a coincidence. The messages of the two different shirts are COMPLETELY different, and you really have nothing to go on but a visual similarity, which does not constitute a reference. I can see how Homestar's rather stoner-like appearance could lead one to speculate that the similarity was intentional, but the text on the shirt has nothing at all to do with legalizing marijuana.

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[edit] Seeing red

From: 4 branches
Posted on: 14:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Arguments for:

Arguments against:

• TBC were probably not thinking that deep when they made the cartoon, and it seems The Homestar Runner did mean it as an insult because he called The Alien a "Communist fool" rather than just a "Communist".
• There are some problems with this fact, in that the term Communist could in fact have been an insult before the Cold War, as asserted in the aforementioned discussion.

Additional comments:

• See the discussion here for some background.
• One possibility might be a revision asserting rather that The Homestar Runner's remarks are more in line with the Cold War Era than the 30s, without saying they are incongruous.
• I admit I didn't consider this until I read the item above. On the other hand, could the Old-Timey cartoon have been from the 40s? I didn't notice a "date" on it.
• I'm in favor of a revision. I agree that the fact above is untenable, but I think the possible anachronism is worth noting. If I'm not mistaken, there's at least one similar notation (about the Prohibition) in the Ballad of The Sneak article.
  • I think altogether the fact is not really true, because there were other times before then that Americans had fears of communism, most notably the Red Scare of 1919-1920. Granted, they may not have been as notable after that, but they still existed. Besides, I would figure that around the time that the Old-Timey cartoons are set in, Stalin would have begun his purges and such.

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