HRWiki:STUFF/Archive/No Hands on Deck!

[edit] Little orphan Oliver

From: No Hands On Deck!
Posted on: 23:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Arguments for:

• Oliver! is probably the most well-known musical about an orphan (and there aren't too many out there).
• Coach Z wears a cap similar to the one worn by Oliver in various productions.
• The song "Where is Love" is a song Oliver sings about his absent mother.
• Re 3rd Argument Against: The lyrics contain the question, "Where is she?" ("she" is Oliver's mother). Also, the title and oft-repeated line "Where is love?" is not about a search for love in general, but rather for the love of a mother. (In the movie, this song is sung while images of Oliver and a picture of his mother are displayed.)
• Annie did not wear a hat like that.

Arguments against:

• Annie is another well-known musical about an orphan.
• Oliver is not the only orphan missing his mother.
• The melody and the lyrics of "Where is Love" are nothing like Coach Z's line.
• Coach Z wants to be the generic orphan character in Homestar's musical about decks; this is a very different from being the lead in a musical about orphans.

Additional comments:

• Re: Argument against: That has nothing to do with this fact and its basis.
  • Yes it has. It is implying that the fact is TTATOT.
    • And the implication is not valid. The fact does not state whether or not "Oliver!" is more well-known. The opinion does, and it's only the opinion. If Coach Z resembles Oliver, it's a reference. There is no need for a TTATOT when one doesn't exist.
      • The argument doesn't say anything about the character Annie, but to the musical Annie, which was set in the Depression and featured clothing like Coach Z's hat.
        • And that's EXACTLY why it has nothing to do with the fact at hand here. And besides, I've seen Annie. I've seen Oliver!. The clothing resembles Oliver more.
          • The fact that it kinda sorta resembles period clothing from old-timey musicals (of which it has been shown there are several) just isn't a strong enough connection for a reference. Adding the bit about the song being a reference stretches it so much that it breaks.
• Re: Second arg against: Aren't all orphans missing their mothers?
• I hate to mess with this dead-even vote, but I'd like to say that I'd be in favor of the first half of the fact and against the second. Yes, there are other musicals about orphans, but taking all things together—1) musical, 2) orphan, and 3) driving cap, I at least think immediately of Oliver. Having said that, I don't think there needs to be a case connecting the songs. I would vote for a revision without the part about the song.

Proposed revision:

Arguments for:

• The revision at least gets rid of the stretched-beyond-belief mention of the song.

Arguments against:

• The resemblance simply isn't that strong.

Additional comments:

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