Talk:The King of Town and The Poopsmith's Relationship

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[edit] The title: why did it change?

There was a reson I made the poopsmith's name first in the title when I first wrote: Their relationship mainly centers around the poopsmith's like/admiration of the king. So I ask you; why did the title change so the king's name would be first? HaldoHelscome!

This page said The KOT's name should go first, and he is more significant to the H*R body of work than that guy who says nothing and shovels lots of crap is. Bad Bad Guy 22:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh. I see. Could you at least see my reasoning? HaldoHelscome!
Bad Bad Guy, DeFender's table of character relationships is just to show which character relationship articles do and do not exist. It is not designed to dictate what they will be named when they get created; that would be too presumptuous. OptimisticFool 22:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Delete

I don't think this relationship is worth an article. There's just nothing to make the King of Town's relationship with The Poopsmith interesting or special: It's a one-sided relationship, with nothing contrary to how we would expect the King to treat a servant/employee or vice versa. It also doesn't play a really major role in the H*R body of work, the way H*R and Strong Bad's or Coach Z and Bubs's does. I suggest deletion. Heimstern Läufer 22:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The same could be said about strong sad and homsar. HaldoHelscome!
How's that? Homsar isn't a "servant/employee" of Strong Sad's. They just have a weird "friendship". Not really relevant here, IMO. -YKHi. I'm Ayjo! 02:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
What I meant was that Strong Sad and Homsar don't have a very conflicted relationship. There is some conflict on strong sad's part, though. I think that this article is relevant because it contradicts the entire Homestar Runner Universe. There is ALWAYS conflict in two character's relationships, right? Not here. It is the only relationship were there is much contact that is "perfect." The King cares about the Poopsmith, and in return the Poopsmith admires the King. See? The perfect relationship. HaldoHelscome!
"I keep telling him the sun don't rise and set on that pile of whatsit, but he don't wanna listen." Sounds like conflict to me. --DorianGray 20:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Heimstern, there is nothing special about their relationship. The article should be deletedLoafing 20:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Yarg, did anyone listen to my long, drawn out reply?! HaldoHelscome!
DorainGray probably did since he pointed out a flaw. Did you listen to him? Bad Bad Guy 01:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Yes, I did. And I found another time where the king insults the poopsmith: "Poopsmith? you smell like a crapsmith!" That's exactly the number of disturbances in the relationship there are in "Strong Sad and Homsar's Relationship". And there was one more, it was... AUGH, way computer shut down before I finished and I forgot what the other one was! Anyway, I still say KEEP.
HEY, wait a second! If THIS can't have it's own page why should Homestar Runner and Coach Z's Relationship?!?! YARG!!
Actually, that's not a bad point: Homestar Runner and Coach Z's relationship isn't especially interesting. Either way, you ought to relax. And anyway, that's not what this talk page is about. As for this article, I'd say it can go. Delete. OptimisticFool 01:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
KK. Question: If I added the two times where they didn't get along, would you accept it? HaldoHelscome!
Until there is a clear consensus, I'd invite you to update the page how you see fit. Anytime you can improve an article, improve an article. If the opinions change as a result, they change. If they don't, then they don't. Be bold. Add them. OptimisticFool 02:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll give it a shot, then. But I have to do my homework right now T_T

Concerning the remark about the sun not rising/setting on the pile of whatsit: I just don't think a single remark with no real significance in the plot of the toon (and that doesn't exactly imply a strong conflict, anyway) does enough to make the relationship notable. Heimstern Läufer 02:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This may seem a bit defensive on my part, but that's about as significant as the "Homsar, we're playing connect four!" line in SS/H's Relationship. And now for something completely different: Is there something wrong with a pure relationship? Even when the King said "You smell like a crapsmith!" he asked the Poopsmith if he had tried to fix this problem as soon as he saw the that the Poopsmith was hurt by that. HaldoHelscome!
Hmm, now that i've said this I'm kinda reluctant to add the bad-ish part of their relationship to the article... Your thoughts?
Okay, i don't get this. Any time we have a relationship page, someone wants to delete it. When we have a page about a relationship that's consistent, we get the "this isn't really worth describing as it's always the same" but when we have pages where it isn't consistant we get arguments that "this relationship has no pattern and is too erratic to be worth documenting." Either we don't like chocolate ice cream, or we don't like vanilla, but if we're going to have ice cream at all, we can't not like both, it's like going mudsliding and complaining about getting dirty. I personally feel like we should have pages on all of the relationships, as long as there's something to note, be it consistent or not. Maybe this comment is a bit broad and should be brought up on a more general page, but whatever, for the moment i say keep — Defender1031*Talk 03:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think anyone's playing both sides of the fence, Defender. The community at large probably does not yet agree on what standards we should have for relationship articles, but so far as I can tell no one is being inconsistent here. Heimstern Läufer 03:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say that any one person was being inconsistent, i was saying that the community as a whole was. Just pointing out that however convincing these arguments may be that this relationship is consistent, it doesn't address the idea of whether the article should be here. I'm pointing out that those in this discussion seem to be taking it as a given that a consistent relationship doesn't merit an article, when in fact, no such rule has been established. I think that before any more discussions are had about deletion of these types of pages, we should really figure out what the scope of this category is so that we don't assume on this page that consistency is bad but on that page that variety is bad. That's all i'm saying. Figure out what we want before we decide whether this fits it. Foundation before the building. — Defender1031*Talk 03:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Me, I think some vetting is necessary in determining which character relationship pages are needed. I'm not sure of what the litmus test is, but there needs to be consensus on one. Some are obviously plot devices over and over, but others are never strong determiners of plot. Perhaps that's where we need to head. Qermaq - (T/C) Image:Qermaqsigpic.png 04:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

yo, check out this discussion, where we can discuss the broader subject. — Defender1031*Talk 04:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I say this page should be deleted. The Poopsmith's relationship with the KOT is almost synonymous with who he is, and since their relationship is so one-dimensional, I don't think that we need to have this page separate from The Poopsmith. Trey56 23:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we should keep it. Religious Corn   21:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I will keep this short Deleted this is a one sided relationship. The-homsarrunner 22:17, 2008 March 22

agree with homsarrunner, delete. there isnt really any way to tell what the poopsmiwth thihnks of the KOT, being that he never talks. --Acam30 01:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted this article. This was a difficult decision, but the consensus is clear, both in terms of the ratio of proponents to opponents of deletion and the weight of their arguments. I still think it will be worthwhile, as DeFender1031 suggested a few months ago, to agree on some clearer guidelines for relationship articles, but unfortunately that discussion never took off. So, for the time being, the consensus to delete this article is clear. Trey56 01:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reviving

It was a bad idea to bring this back, but I had no idea it had already been deleted. I always thought we needed this page, but I guess I was wrong... ThnikkOwen 23:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, no one should expect every user to know every page that's previously been deleted. Further, if you think you have an argument for why this page should be revived, you can definitely bring it up. - 00:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Request to bring the page back

The KOT and The Poopsmith must have a friendship in there hearts! Come on people, let this thing stay, including you, Jay! User:MICGAGUH

I only deleted it as that's what the consensus said. I'm neutral on the page's merits. It's all the people who said "delete" in the above conversation you need to convince. --Jay v.2023 (Auld lang syne) 20:51, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Calling those with a dissenting view "LOSERS!" won't do much to change their minds, either. (For what it's worth, I'm neutral on this page's inclusion, too; I was also just going by consensus.) -YKHi. I'm Ayjo! 22:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
You know, your'e right. I've changed the title to DELETING LOSERS!. User:MICGAGUH
That's not any better and you know it. You're walking a thin line right now. If you want respect, you have to earn it and you have to give some in return. I'm changing the subject line myself. --Jay v.2023 (Auld lang syne) 23:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the appropiate title. Now, who else is with us? User:MICGAGUH
Given that you haven't made a case for what the scope of the page would be, i think it's safe to say "no one". — Defender1031*Talk 04:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
What?! I'll have you know that things should be right. In fact if I had you're job DeFender, I'd return that page. User:MICGAGUH
What job are you referring to? DeFender's not a sysop last I checked, if that's what you mean. Anyway, you still haven't made a case for returning the page. --Jay v.2023 (Auld lang syne) 16:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Not to mention that sysop is more of a position than a job, per se, and that no one sysop has the ability to return a page if consensus remains against its notability. - 16:49, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Back on topic, the whole page is summed up in: "The Poopsmith and the King of Town have a classic 'Tyrant-lackey' relationship. They always get along, and it could even be said that the Poopsmith admires the King," followed by a somewhat boring list of toons where they appear together. There's no drama, and there's really not anything notable that isn't already on their respective character pages. — It's dot com 18:02, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Stop everyone!!!! Look, I know we are in a talk war, but I think I found a way to solve this, a poll! User: MICGAGUH
You ever see polls on Talk Pages before? BBG 19:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
" could even be said that the Poopsmith admires the King." Um, what the crap? Is there any evidence at all that supports this dubious statement? Does the Poopsmith have pictures of the King stuck up on his bedroom walls? Does the Poopsmith remember the King's birthday? Also, I believe that, due to the Poopsmith's silent personality, there is little to discuss of the relationship between these two characters. One shovels whatsit for a living, the other tells him to shovel whatsit for a living, and that's it. They don't fight, they don't work together and they certainly don't admire each other. It would just be a boring list of list of toons in which they appear together, just like what It's dot com said. – The Chort 19:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Just for the record, MICGAGUH, even if we *did* do polls (which, actually, is essentially what the now defunct STUFF was), it almost certainly wouldn't change a thing. Looking at this talk page, it seems such a vote would undoubtedly end up something like 30-3 in favor of "No Article". -YKHi. I'm Ayjo! 23:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Are you sure YK? User: MICGAGUH
I can't guarantee *anything*. But given the way this thread (and indeed, the entire talk page) is shaping up, it seems like a safe bet it'd end overwhelmingly in the negative. It really doesn't *matter*, ultimately, as we don't do votes/polls here, so I'm just speaking hypothetically, here. Moreover, after reading the arguments made by It's dot com and The Chort, I'm shifting my neutral stance to one of opposition, as I'm inclined to agree with them that this wouldn't, in the end, make for a terribly interesting page. -YKHi. I'm Ayjo! 02:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Just to go back to what you said, I don't see a "talk war". I see one person pushing for a page without even making a case for what its scope would be and why it would be interesting, and the rest of the community saying "you need to make a case for what its scope would be and why it would be interesting." Even in the times when we did polls for certain things, a poll was only as a last resort, when the opinion on the talk page was at a standstill deadlock. That's not the case here. — Defender1031*Talk 18:11, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it should be good to see a page like this back up. User: MICGAGUH

[edit] Reviving again

This sucks.I stayed up all night and all day and did a lot of research, now it's deleted.All that time,wasted Rondleman! Stuff I did.Talk. 20:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but your version didn't address any of the reasons listed on this page concerning why we previously deleted the article. I guess next time check whether a page has previously been deleted before creating it. Cheers. — It's dot com 21:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Again and again and again

Since there have been no new toons with these characters interacting since the last time this page was created, there's nothing new to discuss on my end. I'm only not deleting it immediately so that the anonny who created it this time can state whether he has anything new to add from previous discussions. --Jay v.2023 (Auld lang syne) 04:33, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Most of the above discussion took place while I wasn't checking the wiki regularly, so I don't know if my opinion matters so much anymore, but I like what DeFender said about a consistent relationship doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't warrant an article. I think that if we're going to have the series of "Character-X and Character-Y's Relationship" type articles, for consistency's sake, we should have one for all the character combinations. Or at least as many as we can. Grated some just wouldn't work (like Bubs and Pom Pom), but I think this annony proved that this one can. He's put together a solid article here, more or less. He had some solid ideas. The article needed some attention, but I cleaned it and gave it it's best shot. I don't see why it shouldn't be kept.--.Johnny Jupiter! talk cont 07:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I really don't have anything to add besides what I said back when I first nominated this page deletion. Heimstern Läufer 09:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Time to face facts: the Poopsmith is not a compelling character. Until we get several instances of sticking it to his boss, the relationship is very one way. At present time, even with all their appearances together listed, this article cannot stand. For now, delete. --Jellote wuz here 20:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
There's more to be said here than on Pom Pom and The Poopsmith's Relationship, and that article seems to have stuck. And just because their relationship never changes, that doesn't mean there's nothing to say about it. Their relationship is actually very similar to Strong Mad and The Cheat's Relationship, and I think everyone agrees that article needs to stay. There are quite a few more instances of their friendship that should be noted here. In fact, I'd say that because their relationship never changes, it needs a article. Think about it: they're the only pair of characters that interact on a regular basis that never show any kind of disagreement (with one very trivial exception). I'd say that makes it rather unique.--.Johnny Jupiter! talk cont 21:14, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Hallow-day, showing friendship

* Happy Hallow-day - When The King of Town is telling Strong Sad about his diet, The Poopsmith nods in confirmation.

This does show friendship. It's voluntarily backing up something unrelated that the KOT was saying to someone else, in a way that wouldn't have made sense for someone who wasn't his friend or otherwise had inside information into the king's personal affairs and cared enough to make sure other people took him seriously when he talked. I definitely think it belongs on this page, and under friendship seems the most appropriate place.--.Johnny Jupiter! talk cont 02:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

That's a reach. He's just nodding. What's more, of course he has inside information into the King's personal affairs; he works at the King's castle! --Jay v.2023 (Auld lang syne) 03:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Exactly! That's why it belongs here. It suggests them working together, so it belongs on this page somewhere. Maybe not necessarily friendship, but it makes sense in my opinion. Do you not agree that The Poopsmith's nodding would seem a little out of place if it weren't for KOT and P-smith's relationship?--.Johnny Jupiter! talk cont 03:35, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I think it makes sense. I mean, The Poopsmith can't talk, he has to show agreement somehow. StrongAwesome 03:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Would This Fit?

In The King's ending of Kid Speedy, The Poopsmith thought to himself "I think he went to eat his prize" 01:16, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

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