Editing Talk:web comics

==Penny Arcade==

Doesn't anyone think that that Game Pox comic looks like Penny Arcade?[[User:Marvelrulez|Marvelrulez]] 20:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:What, the first comic? With the brick? That's the first thing that came to MY mind, and I've never even read Penny Arcade. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 20:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::Already in Real-World References. And yes, yes it does. It's a reference, no doubt. {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 20:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:While Strong Bad is pretty clearly modelled after Gabriel, I don't know who the Strong Sad character is supposed to be.  But the speech balloons and fonts look similar, also. I think the reference should be put back. (I think it was removed earlier.) [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 20:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
::Strong Bad's point is that there are a million comics like this.  We can't assume that he's making a reference to one specific comic.  And as far as being modeled after Gabriel or whoever, I disagree.  And besides.. again.. lots of comics are alike.  {{User:OptimisticFool/sig}} 20:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
:::STUFF'd. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 20:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
If not PA, its most likely CAD

[[User:69.125.174.75|69.125.174.75]]
Poster of that fun fact

:I don't think so.  There's nothing that reminds me of CAD in "Game Pox".  If anything, Strong Sad is reminiscent of PvP a ''little'' bit, but not enough for me to call it a reference. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 21:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That is definitely a PA reference. If you say otherwise, well, you're wrong, and you're just going to have to deal with that. And that's my objective opinion on the matter. --{{User:Soapergem/sig}} 06:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, after seeing the cartoon and noticing the conspicuous absence of a Penny Arcade fun fact, I moseyed over to look for the conversation. Obviously it needs to keep conversing a little longer, but my two cents are in favor of it. Yes yes, there are Ctrl-Alt-Del and PvP and Dueling Analogs and VGcats and ever and more. But TBC didn't have to put a shirt on Strong Bad at all, much less a yellow one. Plus his black hair, scowly expression, and backwards-leaning posture&mdash;I think they were trying their best to give us an overt reference. &mdash;[[User:AbdiViklas|AbdiViklas]] 13:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:Not only that, but look at the way the eyes and necks are drawn.  The art style is closer to PA than PvP or CAD.

::I dunno, I've been reading penny arcade almost as long as I've been going to homestar runner, and I just don't see it.  I'll grant that the characters look somewhat like their real life counterparts, but I say that's a pretty oblique reference.  There's nothing else really penny arcade about the comic, none of the writing screams penny arcade (except maybe the very early stuff).  I still say it's too much of a stretch. [[User:Nynexman4464|Nynexman4464]] 15:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:::I think you most likely feel this way ''because'' you're very familiar with PA and thus notice the differences, but to someone who's only passingly familiar with it, it's pretty obviously supposed to be PA. Plus, PA is the most famous of of the gamernerd nerdgeek webcomics, and they're well-known for being impossible to understand if you don't play video games (just see the article on them in Wired...)--[[User:75.68.233.187|75.68.233.187]] 15:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:While Strongsad's character is debatable, Strongbad is definitely a reference to Penny Arcade. [[User:Stev0|Stev0]] 16:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:Strong Bad is Gabe from Penny Arcade.  It is possible that Strong Sad is supposed to be someone else entirely from a different comic.  Below someone suggests the idea that he's from Ctrl-Alt-Del, about which i know nothing -[[User:Jdhannan|Jdhannan]] 16:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

: Personally, I thought it was the Red vs Blue comic when I first saw this email.
::Then you're mental.  It could not look less like or be less related to RvB -[[User:Jdhannan|Jdhannan]] 02:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:As I said earlier, Strongbad's character is a reference to Penny Arcade.  However, the way it's worded now, it sounds like the bit is ONLY a reference to Penny Arcade; it's obviously slamming the thousands of webcomics out there that are Two Guys Talking About Videogames. [[User:Stev0|Stev0]] 05:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:: I still agree; Strongbad's character is a PA reference. Strong ''Sad's'' character, however, I have no idea about it. And just to clear things up for the nay-sayers, if you still don't believe us, take a look at this picture:
:: http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2706/sbpaee9.gif
:: But like Stev0 said, it is important to distinguish between the two characters, since there's no resemblance at all between Strong Sad's character and Tycho. If anyone could figure out who he's supposed to be, that would be even better. --{{User:Soapergem/sig}} 05:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
::: I don't how they'd make Strong Sad look like Tycho. --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 17:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
::: I agree that it's probably Penny Arcade and not CAD, but I disagree with the way it's worded now: "''The college roommate webcomic is a reference to the webcomic Penny Arcade and its numerous imitators.''" Its kinda un-encyclopedaic. I suggest "''The college roommate webcomic is a reference to the Penny Arcade webcomic and the numerous other comics like it.''" or something along those lines. While it is referencing PA directly, it's also referring to all the other gaming webcomics, not all of which are PA ripoffs. [[User:Dementedc|Dementedc]] 19:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

== Captain N parody? ==

Part of this email clearly seems to be sending up Captain N the Game Master. A series which featured a human in the video game world, and the game worlds, story plots and characters often bore little or no resemblance to their game counterparts. For example the Secret Collect character is a whiney coward not unlike Simon Belmont's portrayal in Captain N. The in-jokes may even go further than I recognise.

:Reminded me more of the Pac-Man cartoon, personally. Captain N centered around a real-world human, as well as a whole *group* of random NES characters; not much of a similarity IMO. Also, Simon Belmont was a whiny coward in Captain N (something he very much is *not* in Castlevania games, but I digress), but he was also a hopeless narcissist, which Secret Collect isn't. Ramble. -{{User:YK/sig}} 07:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:It seems more than just Captain N. There were also shows like the &quot;Super Mario Bros. Super Show,&quot; The Legend of Zelda TV Series, and the Megaman TV Series... two of the three can be found nowadays in the form of something completely mixed up on Youtube. - {{User:Ren Foxx/sig}} 01:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

::Honestly, I'm not sure where so many people are getting these mixed references to every single video game-based cartoon ever out of the five-second Secret Collect cartoon clip. Unless there's something horribly wrong with my computer, and the SBEMail is skipping over a five-minute segment making fun of those cartoons, all I'm seeing is a teen, a dog, and a talking red cube. And a stereotypical '70s-'80s cartoon villain. As someone who once watched those old cartoons religiously, I just can't see any connection whatsoever to Zelda, Super Mario, Sonic, Megaman, or any other of the myriad of video game-based cartoons and anime; those were, despite being cheesy, at least based on games with actual characters and plotlines. And it's *especially* nothing like Captain N, which was basically a collective of random characters in random settings. I mean, jeez, the three main villains were from Metroid, Punch Out, and Kid Icarus! The Secret Collect cartoon is, if anything, a jab at Saturday Supercade, which made cartoons out of those simple one-screen arcade games with no actual characterization, such as Pac-Man (which, yes, I know, was its own cartoon), Frogger, Q*Bert, and Donkey Kong. (DK wasn't *always* the bowtie-wearing banana-loving hipster he is today, kiddies.) If the cartoon featured, say, Secret Collect, Duck Guardian, Kid Speedy, Thy Dungeonman, and the guy from Where's An Egg?, along with the human kid, then yes, it'd be an obvious Captain N parody. But it doesn't. So it ain't. -{{User:YK/sig}} 05:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== Bob and George? ==

Been a while since I had posted here. Anyway, when SB was listed out <em>&quot;They're all about video games, gamernerds, webgeeks, dorknerds, gamewads, nerdgames, webwebs, and elves.&quot;</em> The first thing that came to mind when he mentioned &quot;video games&quot; (and later said &quot;just steal some graphics from your favorite video game&quot;) was the Web Comic [http://www.bobandgeorge.com/ Bob and George], further enforced with the Stinkoman comic bit where the majority of Stinkoman sprites were based off of Megaman... Heck, I too am guilty of the use of videogame graphics for my own web-comic... which I'm currently slacking on. Also, I'd like to point out the MS Paint comment SB mentioned. Many new comers to the sprite/pixel comic landfill often use MS Paint as their very first program, and use it very badly. As far as the Elves part goes, I'm unsure. - {{User:Ren Foxx/sig}} 04:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Unlike Penny Arcade, which has a form that is discernably lampooned, Bob and George and 8-Bit Theater et. al. don't really have any hallmarks that would make them stand out from other sprite comics. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 05:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::Well, unless you count Bob and George being the '''first''' significant sprite comic. There's a reputation for really bad comic writers to base their works on Bob and George as well. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 15:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe it's lampooning ALL sprite comics.  I also think 8-Bit Theater is more well known, if we have to point out one. [[User:Stev0|Stev0]] 20:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
:I agree; it's just about all sprite comics. We don't need to point out one specifically. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 20:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== Explanations ==

I think GamerJox is a spoof of [[Wikipedia:Ctrl+Alt+Del |Ctrl+Alt+Del]]. Strong Sad strongly resembles Lucas. And those web comics with the sprites could be referenced to [[Wikipedia:8-Bit Theater |8-Bit Theater]].
*Strong Bad's pompadour, yelling pose and yellow shirt are pretty reminiscent of Gabriel.  Contrariwise, I don't see anything in Strong Sad resembling Lucas other than he's fat. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 05:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
*No, I don't think so. Lucas wears a white shirt, and has hair more like Strong Bad's. [[User:Evil Egg|Evil Egg]] 12:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
**By the way, heading off at the pass further discussion of 8-Bit Theater: Yeah, that was the first thing I thought of when Strong Bad began talking about it, but as he went on to describe such crappy examples, I think he's really just referencing the dozens upon thousands of amateur attempts using the same method. &mdash;[[User:AbdiViklas|AbdiViklas]] 13:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Should "Burn" and "Dodge" be added to the Photoshop explanations section or are they self explanatory? {{User:Jeadly/sig}} 16:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

==Spamusement==

Is the Spam-based comic a reference to [http://www.spamusement.com/ | Spamusement]?  I don't know of any other webcomic that does this. I'm not saying there aren't, I'm just saying I don't know about them if there are. [[User:Stev0|Stev0]] 16:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Seconded -[[User:Jdhannan|Jdhannan]] 16:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:STUFF'd. Vote there. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 21:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

::STUFF should be only be used when there's no consensus on the talk page. Here's the fact that was removed (edited a bit):
<blockquote>
The Cheat's web comic, based on spam mailers' names, is a reference to ''[[Wikipedia:Spamusement!|Spamusement!]]'', a real-life comic made from spam email subject lines.
</blockquote>
::This seems to be a legitimate reference to me; the gimmicks behind the comics are almost identical, and I doubt that there are any other real-life web comics that are similar. Anybody agree or disagree? {{User:Trey56/sig}} 21:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:::I think it's probably a reference, unless someone can demonstrate that it's [[TTATOT]]. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 21:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:The following comments/arguments were moved here from the STUFF page &mdash; hopefully, we can find consensus on this fact here without the need for the STUFF process. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 00:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
<blockquote>
:''Argument For from [[User:Mathgrant|Mathgrant]]:'' Both The Cheat's comic and Spamusement! reference spam, and have bad art.

:''Comment from [[User:Kvn8907|Kvn8907]]:'' It was kind of annoying how people kept deleting and re-adding this before this section in STUFF was added, especially when they gave it as their reason for removing it. Not that it has much to do with the current argument; I'm just saying.-[[User:Kvn8907|Kvn8907]] 23:47, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

:''Argument Against from [[User:Ten Ten|Ten Ten]]:'' Claiming it as a reference to one specific source is ambiguous: there are multiple groups that spend time making fun of spam messages.
</blockquote>

::While there are many groups devoted to making fun of spam, crappy drawings based on spam subject lines are pretty much Spamusement!'s trademark, methinks. [[User:Mathgrant|Mathgrant]] 00:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:::<s>I can't really see that TBC were specifically referencing Spamusement. The concept doesn't exactly match Spamusement; The Cheat draws things based on the senders' names, Spamusement draws things based on the subject line. Besides that, The Cheat's screen looks nothing like the POOR web design of Spamusement. Also, looking at several of Spamusement's drawings, they all seem to be black and white, whereas The Cheat's are full color. And The Cheat's style matches all PBTC artistry, so you can't really take drawing style into account. I have to admit, though, that a Google search did not seem to produce anything that compares to Spamusement. I didn't try very hard, though. And I'm not on the fence about it. I would vote to reject this being listed as a real world reference. {{User:OptimisticFool/sig}} 01:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)</s>

::::Perhaps you're not familiar with how a 'reference' works.  What would they have to do for it to be a reference to Spamusement?  Have the cheat make comics based on spam subject lines in black and white, matching that guy's style and his style of web design?  HILARIOUS.  Direct copying of someone else? thats comedic gold.  No place for creativity here folks. -[[User:Jdhannan|Jdhannan]] 02:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::Fine, I take it back. I didn't enjoy this email as it is; just not my kind of humor this time. A rare miss by TBC, IMO. ''(from [[User:OptimisticFool|OptimisticFool]]'s edit summary when removing the above comment)'' 04:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== Kirby ==

The stupid paint thing that is drawn on the Stinkoman comic looks a little like Kirby in a messed up way.

Pardon me, but I don't think I see the resemblance.  Other than a round pink shape and having a face.  But other than that, you really have to stretch it to see the resemblance. [[User:71.231.56.40|71.231.56.40]] 17:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== The Smurfs ==

*It's not something I want to put on the page without discussing it (unlike Penny Arcade where I'm pretty sure), but the evil wizard from the Secret Collect cartoon reminds me of Gargamel.  He wears a crappy looking cloak, is balding, has rotten teeth, and the shot of his castle is reminiscent of all the interior shots in Gargamel's castle. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 09:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:I agree entirely, although he also reminds me of <strike>Mitch Overlord</strike> Bozar. {{User:Zoom/sig}} 19:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
::I dunno, I don't want to add this unless I get more notes saying it's not a stretch. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 00:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
::Mitch Overlord?  Are you sure you don't mean [[Bozar]]?  -invisible_map
:::I'm surprised no one has said that the "cool dog" is a reference to Poochie the dog from ''The Simpsons''. --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 17:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

== Spam senders ==

Some of those names, besides Hooray4Dolphins I reckon could be from some other wellknown characters.

Public D. Themackinest - Pompon, The Mack
Lowpoint K. Festivals - Strong Sad, being at a constant lowpoint

There may be others that I have not been able to decifer. I know that it might be a reach, and in any way a weak case, but I just throught that I would throw it out there. [[User:Lord-z|Lord-z]] 15:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

: It's an interesting theory, but it strikes me as speculation. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 15:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

== Signature blocks ==

I added the following fact as a real world reference:
:The characters in GamerJox monotonously reciting computer specifications at the end of their comic is a reference to the inclusion of such information in [[Wikipedia:Signature block|signature blocks]] of posts in [[Wikipedia:Internet forum|internet forums]] by computer technology enthusiasts.
And it was removed with this explanation:
:Why would he be referencing signature blocks/internet forums in an email about web comics?? And being "similar to" is not enough to be a real world reference.)
The random spouting off computer specs really deserves an explanation, and I'm convinced that this is it. Why else would he possibly have done it? To answer the question the deleter asks, I would imagine Strong Bad is implying that these characters are the kinds of people who use and see computer specs in internet forum signature blocks so regularly that they automatically use them as a "signoff" even when communicating in person. That does seem odd, but it's a joke, and that's how I interpreted it. Did anyone interpret it some other way? [[User:LikeAsItself|LikeAsItself]] 18:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Seconded.  That makes total sense. -[[User:Jdhannan|Jdhannan]] 02:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
:The reason is that it's a parody of all the unnecessary technogeekery that crop up in these types of comics. It's like if someone were to parody ''Peanuts'' by having Lucy say "Insult of Charlie Brown!" and Linus say "Vaguely related Bible verse!" Or something. There was a parody comic of ''Ozy and Millie'' that went kinda like that, but I can't find it anymore. [[User:Octan|Octan]] 04:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
::Here's a question though: is this more of a real-world reference or an explanation? [[User:LikeAsItself|LikeAsItself]] 02:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== Cast of Characters ==

How much of the characters in the comics and cartoons and so one should we include in the cast list? Any? All? Note that not everything in the cast has to be linked. Personally, I'm for including everyone we can name/has a speaking part. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 19:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

==Captain N==

The first Saturday morning cartoon reminds me of Captain N. [[User:Awexome|Awexome]] 23:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
:Good thing this is different than the other Captain N message about 3 blocks up -[[User:Jdhannan|Jdhannan]] 02:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== Stinkoman Sprite Comics ==

This is obvious, but the Stinkoman Sprite Comic definitely references Stinkoman Sprite Comics on the Fanstuff Wiki. I've seen MS Painted graphics in these things. {{User:Im a bell/sig}} 01:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
:P.S. This doesn't need to be STUFF'd! {{User:Im a bell/sig}}

Well, they're not the only sprite comics with MS Painted endings.  8-bit Theater, for one.  I believe that the reason the TBC used Stinkoman 20X6 is that his game was the only sprite-styled game cinematic enough for sprite comic use. [[User:71.231.56.40|71.231.56.40]] 16:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
:P.S. Doesn't need to be STUFF'd?  Why?  There seems to be other explanations.  We just might need to STUFF it. [[User:71.231.56.40|71.231.56.40]] 16:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Changed my mind.  No STUFF.  It's spoofing the whole genre of sprite comics.  Just don't put it there at all. [[User:71.231.56.40|71.231.56.40]] 17:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:It bears mentioning that the genre exists, and in fact 8-Bit Theater is/was one of the first comics to do it (and ''the'' first to become famous for doing so).  If we can have a Fun Fact referencing Penny-Arcade "and its many imitators", then we should be able to have a similar one for 8-Bit Theater and its derivatives. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 19:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

== ... and elves. ==

I believe that Strong Bads line, "They're all about video games, gamernerds, webgeeks, dorknerds, gamewads, nerdgames, webwebs, and elves" makes a reference to 8-bit Theater, at least the part about elves. [[User:12.18.218.230|12.18.218.230]] 01:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
:Yes, because 8-Bit Theater is the only webcomic ''ever'' to be about elves. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 01:58, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
::Elves don't pertain to 8-Bit Theater specifically.  But I would argue that the Stinkoman sprite comic ''is'' a more specific reference to 8-Bit Theater - that's the webcomic/animation series that is most commonly "blamed" for starting that particular sub-genre.  I believe that's a valid reference. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 18:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
:::If we're going for specifics, the Stinkoman comic is more like Bob and George, another pioneer of the genre - Mega Man sprites and MS Paint'ed non-punchlines are something of a signature for it (although in the latter case, it's never as obnoxious as presented by Strong Bad). [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 00:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

== Why are you guys so quick to delete valid Real-World References? ==

I'm noticing a trend here, especially in this email, but more generally across the board in recently released toons and emails.  This email is full of references to modern Internet culture, yet the established members of this community seem REALLY eager to just delete those references ''without discussion'' and without checking the facts (or showing they have checked the facts) being asserted.  For example: My entry for the Stinkoman comic referencing 8-Bit Theater was removed almost immediately after I added it, with an edit summary saying that 8-Bit Theater was the ONLY comic out there that used video-game sprites.

Now, it's possible that person was being sarcastic (and honestly, guys, that kind of sarcasm doesn't help discussion at all), but the statement itself is patently false.  Dozens of sprite-based comics (including many direct knock-offs and parodies) have been spawned mainly due to 8-Bit Theater's existence.  G4 even has a syndicated TV show now based on that concept.  8-Bit Theater was one of the first comics using that particular medium to become successful (whether it was actually the very first one to do it is highly debatable, but it's famous for doing it well).

I just find it really discouraging to see people just deleting perfectly valid information like that without allowing for discussion and consensus.  I realize we have STUFF, but it seems like even that vehicle is being sidestepped more and more lately.  It's part of the reason I haven't been participating on this wiki as much as I used to - sometimes, this community can come across as downright hostile.

&lt;/soapbox&gt; {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 18:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:STUFF (or at least STUFFing immediately) has been discouraged of late in favor of a talk page discussion. (See below.) As for the attitude of the people here, as long as I can remember we've had established users who are consistently sarcastic (not that there's anything right with that). &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 19:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

::It's one thing to be sarcastic in a friendly way, but comments like "Like this is the ''only'' place that elves have ''ever'' been referenced!" as a reply to someone asking for discussion is really quite unfriendly, and it seems against the spirit of the community that I joined two years ago.  That's why I'm bringing it up now.

::As for the STUFF: I reverted your removal of my STUFF item because people have been trying to discuss that particular topic here in at least three separate threads on this Talk page.  All of those have been summarily shot down as TTATOT without considering that a reference to the genre might be appropriate.  I figured we'd make more headway in a single, organized discussion - that was what STUFF was originally designed for, was it not? {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 19:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Our approach to STUFF has undergone some changes, and for reasons I think are quite good. More discussion and less voting is a good thing. I think it's appropriate to use a straight vote as a last resort, so STUFF does still have a purpose here, but I think it's good that we've reduced its use as we have. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 19:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Okay.  I'm fine with that so long as it doesn't turn into the problematic Talk-vote process that existed before STUFF came into use in the first place. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 19:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm the one who reverted that fact, yes I *was* being sarcastic, and if you'll notice in the edit summary, references to sprite comics have been removed repeatedly. I didn't mean any particular offense or anything, so I apologize if I came across as rude. It's just, there are so many sprite-based webcomics out there that it's really impossible to say that the Stinkocomic is a direct reference to any one in particular. (Heck, *I* once attempted a sprite comic, using Chrono Trigger graphics; it got nowhere, but nevertheless.) The only way such a fact is truly "valid" is if we take the route of the "Jeeves" fact, noting more about its origin and the trend, rather than saying it's an out and out reference to one comic that TBC may or may not have heard of. -{{User:YK/sig}} 21:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:What exactly is a reference? The problem is that people seem to be having trouble distinguishing between references and coincidences, with some users overzealously adding real-world references based on slight similarities, and other equally zealous users deleting real-world references that are anything less than completely obvious. And then there are people to represent every spot in between. The problem is that "reference" isn't clearly defined as it pertains to the wiki, so people just use their own personal definition, and don't realize that other people's definitions may be different. I'm trying to start discussion on the issue over at [[HRWiki_talk:Standards#Standards_for_Real-World_References]], hoping that people will realize why people seem to disagree so much on RWRs, and maybe find some common ground.--[[User:Laser-Grilled Crab & Cheese Sandwich|LGC&amp;CS]] 23:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

::YK: I had intended for that 8-Bit Theater reference to indicate that 8-Bit Theater started the trend, not necessarily to say that it was the only such comic that this email could be referencing.  It probably would have been better worded as "The sprite comic parodies the genre of sprite-based web comics that began with 8-Bit Theater", similar to how Penny-Arcade is being used as a starting point for that particular genre.  Make more sense that way?  (And I still maintain that the same is true of Saturday Morning Cartoons - ''Pac-Man'' started that genre.) {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 16:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Oh, I agree. I actually changed the fact to reflect that yesterday (but it got removed by someone else, due to a similar one being in Explanations), though there seems to be some conflict over whether Bob and George (which I've never heard of, though that's irrelevant) or 8-Bit Theater came first. And I agree about the Saturday Morning Cartoons bit, especially Pac-Man; though where people are getting a connection to Captain N, Super Mario Bros., or the Legend of Zelda toons, I don't know. See my above rant. -{{User:YK/sig}} 17:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

::::Captain N, SMB, Zelda, etc., are all in the same category as Pac-Man - they're just video-game-based cartoons with similar plot/character alterations.  Almost all SatAm cartoons that were based on games introduced new characters and plotlines that really have nothing to do with the games themselves, but generally, the more complex the game, the less alteration happened in the cartoon.  Pac-Man is *really* simple, so it would make for a really boring cartoon without adding some villains and sidekicks, and plots for global domination and all that. :) {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 18:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::Well, as I said above, I see those as in a different catagory, because at the least, SMB, Zelda, and the others had some existing characters, a world, and a backstory to work with. Secret Collect, however, is more reminiscent of the cartoons such as Pac-Man that built an entire world out of a plotless, no characterization, one-screen arcade game. I get what you're saying, but to link Secret Collect to the SMB and Zelda cartoons just because they're "based on video games" is like comparing the Statue of Liberty to a Picasso painting because "they're both art". Same, but different. =P -{{User:YK/sig}} 21:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not apologizing for my "elves" quip.  It ''is'' patently ridiculous to think that 8-Bit Theater was the first webcomic to ever reference elves. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 00:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

:That doesn't mean you have to be rude about it.  The guy's comment was a bit misguided, yes, but there are far better ways to respond to that.  I personally would have been rather offended had that been me you were replying to. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 16:10, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

::Seriously, folks, snappy answers to stupid questions and the like work well in MAD magazine, but are a real turn-off and annoyance when dealing with real people. There's just no reason for them. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 17:30, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

== Saturday Morning Cartoon Collect! ==
:''The Secret Collect Saturday morning cartoon is a reference to various cartoons produced in the 1980s that were based on video games.  Most of these cartoons introduced new characters and deviated significantly from the plots or spirit of the games they were based on.''

This was another STUFF that was not brought to the talk page first. In the interest of encouraging discussion, I am moving it here so we can talk about it and hopefully not have to resort to a vote. There were two arguments for its inclusion:
<blockquote>
#The point of this FF is not to reference specific cartoons, but rather the entire genre of video-game licensed cartoons, most of which deviated significantly from the plot or spirit of the games they were based on.
#This isn't really "explaining the joke", since newer viewers unfamiliar with those old cartoons are unlikely to understand why the joke is funny.
</blockquote>

There were also several comments:
<blockquote>
*Variants of the proposed fact also reference ''Legend of Zelda'' and ''Captain N''.  In the first revision of this FF, I used ''Pac-Man'' as a notable example because it enjoyed widespread popularity, mainly due to the game's own popularity in North America.
*Without referencing any/all specific video game cartoons, this may be more appropriate as a "Remark" rather than a "Real World Reference".
</blockquote>

Both '''[[User:KieferSkunk|KieferSkunk]]''' and '''[[User:OptimisticFool|OptimisticFool]]''' indicated that they supported keeping the fact and were responsible for the above arguments and comments. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 19:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

:<s>With all due respect, why do we still have a STUFF process if we're not going to use it?  (Expanding on this) My understanding was that STUFF came about because the previous process, discussing Fun Facts on Talk pages, was cumbersome, difficult to manage, and people weren't taking it seriously.  I'd really like to see us avoid falling back into that. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 19:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)</s> Nevermind - I'm a bit grouchy at the moment and shouldn't be taking it out on everyone here.  Move along. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 19:16, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
::OK, now my opinion. If the fact is worded so that it refers to the genre, rather than trying to make a claim to it referring to a specific show, it's probably good. Some people may not know this (especially readers born after the 80s), so it may be worth noting it. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 19:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
::I have no problem with the fact if it's phrased in the way Heimstern suggests. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 00:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Actually, using ''Pac-Man'' as an example would be appropriate since it was the first cartoon show to be entirely based on a video game.  The other shows that have been referenced so far came significantly later.  Since we have a Penny-Arcade reference that deals with Penny-Arcade "and its imitators", and I believe a similar one about 8-Bit Theater would be appropriate since it started the sprite-based comic genre, I think it would be appropriate to mention that Pac-Man started the video-game cartoon genre.  For consistency's sake, mainly. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 16:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

::::I'm sure readers born after the 80s will get the joke, seeing that there's still cartoons based on video games. --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 17:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

:::::I disagree.  For one, today's game-cartoons are based on the actual plotlines of the games themselves, at least to a much greater extent than those of the early 80s.  Today's games usually have much more in-depth plots that the cartoons either help to explain or expound upon, but the 80s cartoons had to create their plots and character sets outside of the games, or else there wouldn't have been anything to make a cartoon out of.  The Secret Collect toon very obviously references the latter situation.

:::::The last notable example I can think of where a game-based cartoon deviated significantly from the game was the first Sonic the Hedgehog series, which introduced a team of "freedom fighters" and a more established universe that made the plot more believable.  Even then, though, that cartoon had a much stronger connection to the game than, say, Pac-Man did. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 18:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

== The Problem Is... ==

There are too many gamernerds, webgeeks, dorknerds, gamewads, nerdgames, webwebs (and elves?) editing this Wiki.  And everyone fighting for their favorites, it seems.  Thus the constant adding, removing and changing of so-called references.  Are they references?  I don't care anymore.  And I don't see any end to it.  Months from now, new people will come across the Wiki and go, "Hey, how did everyone miss this?  This is a reference to cartoons like Pac-Man and Captain N and Zelda and Super Mario Bros and Sonic and Mega Man and Saturday Supercade."  And that'll get reverted.  Then someone'll see that and add back just the portions of the post ''they'' agreed with, and that'll get reverted, etc., and we'll all have a jolly time sorting through the mess.  Yee haw.  {{User:OptimisticFool/sig}} 00:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
:Well, to be fair, I think we can be a bit more optimistic than that. I hope I'm not foolish for thinking so. ;-) Anyway, though, I do think this will let up a bit after the email is less new. It's true that an email like this does lend itself to a lot of attempts to draw references, but even here, I think it will pass. For example, rarely do we get a new reference added to [[virus]], which was the email that inspired the STUFF process because of how many references people added. So, just give it some years, and it probably will fix itself! But in the meantime, it's important that we just have good, productive talk page discussions here to try to come to consensus on what is or isn't a reference. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 01:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
::To my knowledge, no one has added fact explaining what Burn & Dodge: The Fantasy Photoshop Gradient Comic is a reference to. --[[User:Trogga|Trogga]] 17:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)