Editing Talk:Who Said What Now?

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|[[Image:Warning.png|30px|Butt's twelve by pies!]]
|'''Note:''' This game used to have a different name and a different shape. We're aware of that. Due to circumstances outside our control, we're not going into further detail at this time. Until we are able to discuss it further, please do not ask about it or worry about it too much. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.
|}<br />

==Fan music video==
Does anyone know where I can find that fan music video for Strong Sad's line? I always liked it. --[[User:VolatileChemical|VolatileChemical]] 04:20, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

:I know where you can find it. It's called "Strong Bad Rocks Out" by [[The Skate Party]]. You can listen to it (or download it) using a link on my forum. Here's the URL: [http://www.strongfans.com/portal/show_entry.asp?TYP=2&EntryID=169] Enjoy! {{User:The Paper/sig}} 14:43, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

::Or go here- http://newgrounds.com/portal/view/187036. [[User:Ookelaylay|Ookelaylay]] 20:59, 12 Aug 2005 (UTC)

==The tab==
the tab has 3-type-D animation, ie, when you pull it, it comes up horizontal, when its at rest its at a diagonal angle. {{User:Csours/sig}} 09:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

== Is That A Cold One? ==

i always thought that the "dink" heard during strong bads say was a cold one bottle cap coming off. and i still think it is. should i put this up in stuff? -{{User:Homsar7/sig}}
:I think it's pretty hard to say what it is, as there's no visual to match it to. Anything at all is pretty much speculation. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]]

==Name Change==
This game is now called "Who said what?" I think it's because of the copyright issue thing. - {{User:The Joe/sig}} 21:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
:Noted and moved. Thanks for the update! --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 21:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
::Is it worth noting somewhere in the article the reason for the name change? {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 00:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Doubtful. That's not really part of the encyclopedic significance. &mdash; {{User:Lapper/sig}} 00:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
::::I think it's an important part of the game's history. But we should wait how everything turns out before we add it.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 00:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::Yeah. When did it change? Boy, this is getting to be an interesting week. --[[User:Jnelson09|Jnelson09]] 22:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::Um, why won't we note the name change? If we aren't sure of the reason why the name was changed, we don't have to jump to conclusions, we could just say something like ''"This game's title was '(crud, I forgot the original title!)' when it was first released. It was changed to 'Who Said What Now?' in early 2007."'' And moreover, why is the page protected now? &mdash; {{User:SamFisher1022/sig}} 17:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
:::::::It's highly likely Mattel, who made the toy the old game made fun of, tried to sue them.  That's why the page is locked with no mention of the original name. [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 17:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
::::::::but why are -we- legally liable for talking about it, and why would THEY be liable for what WE say when there's no affiliation? Companies don't have this kind of control over regular people.

==Picture==
Now that the game has been changed, is it permissible to put a picture of the new game up? {{User:Geshmalderborgen/sig}} 22:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
:I should think so, yes. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 22:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

== Locked? ==

Somehow I ended up logged out, and when I noticed this page on RecentChanges, I noticed it was locked. The only explanation given is that it was "at the request of [[Karen Wagner]]"... I suppose, looking at the above comments, I might have a guess why it was locked (copyright issues?), but that said, how accurate is my guess? And does it still need to be locked? --{{User:Jay/sig}} 23:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
:Also, the image was removed per KW (according to the history) and now has been restored.  a) are we allowed to do this and b) can someone please explain what's going on? --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 05:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
::Well, it's a new image. Different image. But I should probably check first... *sweatdrop* I've commented it out for now, until I get an okay... --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 05:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Is it still appropriate for this page to be locked?{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 16:06, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
:It probably doesn't need to be locked for too much longer, but we're trying to tread through this issue carefully, so hold on a little longer... {{User:Trey56/sig}} 16:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there a particular reason long-time members are locked as well?  I've seen quite a few Wikipedia pages, such as [[Wikipedia:High School Musical]], which were locked only to nonmembers and newbies.  If we can lock it for those people only I have an idea for a picture to use in the template.  (I know this should go in its own talk page but I didn't know what to call the template) [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 03:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:We don't need a semi-protected template, thanks. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 03:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

i need to add a "view the old version" link (to spin and say) [[User:slipknot6477]]
:No, we're not going to do that. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 23:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
why not?
:For reasons that are already listed on this page in various threads. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 23:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

::In other words, [[looking old|legal reasons]] not to be discussed at the current time. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 23:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Since this is locked could someone with the privileges replace the External Links section with this standardized code?
<pre>*[[HR:whosaidwhat.html|play the game]]
*[[HR:whosaidwhat.swf|play game (Flash file)]]</pre>
Please and Thanks. --[[Special:Contributions/71.157.173.166|71.157.173.166]] 22:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
:Done and done. You're welcome. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 22:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

== Request for article link change ==

The line ''The game is a parody of Mattel's "See 'n Say."'' should, I think, instead of linking to Mattel's wiki entry, should more appropriately link to the [[Wikipedia:See 'n Say|See 'n Say]] page. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 11:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
:Done. {{User:Phlip/sig}} 12:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
::Cool, thanks!  Also, I don't mean to be knit picker, but I was hoping that the Mattel link would go away or look a bit better, since having the word be half link/half text doesn't look as pleasing as if it looked like: [[Wikipedia:Mattel|Mattel's]]. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 05:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
::That is odd. Isn't the appended bit normally swallowed into the link, or is that only for inside links? {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 10:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Mine swallows both internal and external links, except any with an "'s". Then it just goes '''Blue Words Here'''<nowiki>'s</nowiki>. Dunno why. *shrugs* --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 18:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
::::My guess is that extra characters are automatically apparended to the link when they are only letters.  My guess is that the apostrophe breaks that "autolink".  I personally don't like that feature and opt to link it myself.  --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 03:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::But don't. The link is to the noun, not the possessive, and shouldn't be linked as though it were. Also, we should avoid piped links when possible. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 00:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::True.  The link is a noun and not the possessive, but it just looks soooo much prettier! Lol.  And we rename things all the time!  Oh is that what you mean by avoiding piped links when possible?  But I like piped links! They're my frieeend! ... *awkward silence*  Right. Anyway, I just think form over function might be a nice idea in this very... isolated... case. Yeah. Isolated. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 02:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

== Add some links ==

Would it be appropiate to add links to the original version?  I couldn't add them myself because the edit buttons appear to be hidden.
:I don't think we should. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 00:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
::If anything, we should put it on [[Secret Pages]], but only after this page and the other pages involving the toy are unprotected, and the copyright issue is resolved {{User:Dr._Clash/sig}} 00:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
:::I think we should pretend "Sp*n 'N S*y" never existed and it has always been Who Said What?. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 00:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
::::I concur. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 00:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::NO, DON'T! It would be like saying the Mattel product never existed. You wouldn't want that, would you?
Well, there are places where the forbidden name is used, such as the [[Third Games Menu]] and [[Why Come Only One Girl?]]. Also the old [[Handheld Games Menu]] mirrors. I say that we don't do anything more until we get the Chapmans' ok. - {{User:Dr._Clash/sig}} 00:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
:That is likely for the best. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 02:43, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
How can [[Secret Pages]] and [[Astro-Lite 2600]] include links to Lite Brite if it is a registered trademark of Hasbro? [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 15:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

::That issue hasn't yet surfaced as a problem (and hopefully never will). {{User:Trey56/sig}} 15:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it possible for us to pretend this game was always this state without creating the impression Kidelectrix predates Videlectrix? [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 19:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, you're doing a damn good job of erasing The Game That Apparently Must Not Be Named from history, let me say. I came across this page and thought, "Ah, it's been changed", but then found no reference to [that game]. I know how obsessive you fanboys are at documenting every little thing about Homestar Runner, so I frantically searched for any reference at all to [that game] on the wiki, but found none, and thought to myself, "Have I gone mad? Did I just imagine [that game]? Why on earth isn't there a reference to it?" Nothing made sense until I found this talk page, from which the situation can be inferred.

Pandering to the dictates of the Chaps aside, I don't see why there shouldn't be a reference to it on this site. It isn't affiliated to homestarrunner.com, so there can't be any ramifications, can there? Well, there's my bit. Thanks for causing so much confusion. --[[User:84.67.250.92|84.67.250.92]] 22:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:Hey, no problem. Unfortunately, it's not going to change anytime soon, at least not until the dust finally settles. You may think we're pandering fanboys&mdash;and that's fine, you can think that if you want&mdash;but really we're being respectful of them and their request. Also, I think it shows poor discretion if one's bottom line in making decisions is "Meh, what's the worst that can happen?". In cases like that, it's almost always better not to find out. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::Wait, why is this an issue? Is it because of the copyright on the original errm... thing by mattel? I got lost. Suddenly everyone's acting like we need to clean up after a murder. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 23:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
:::The nature of the issue is such that we won't be discussing it at present; however, in due time we will explain the full reasoning behind everything. I know it's frustrating, but we are asking for your patience for a while longer. Thanks for your cooperation. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 23:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
::::I understand. When a legal issue comes up like this, the best thing to do is exactly what you and all the other sysops and admins are doing. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 03:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::If I may chip in my thoughts on this, to avoid confusion (i.e. the aformentioned "Kidelectrix predates Videlectrix!?!" thing), whenever it is deemed we can edit this again, we could simply say "This game is an edited version of an older game, with Homsar's quote and the Kidelectrix name  added" or something--we can be ambiguous and not say anything about the older game's content, just say that this one is a new version of an older game. [[User:Evan|Evan]] 00:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::Here's my two cents: Evan's plan is a good one for now, but in the future, should there ever be a resolution, we can give a full explanation as to what happened to the (BLEEEEEEEEP). --[[User:Jnelson09|Jnelson09]] 04:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Are you referring to something like, "Homsar's quote and the Kidelectrix label were added later," because that sounds good to me. [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 21:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Maybe we could also treat the Kidelectrix label the way we treat the changes of the secret phrases from [[Homestar Talker]] and the music from [[Dancin' Bubs]]. [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 17:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

== About a Fun Fact ==

I don't like the word "parody". Please change the text "This game is a '''parody''' of Mattel's See 'n' Say" to something else. Thank you. Remember: YOU made me hate this word. {{unsigned|76.184.188.124|17:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)}}
:Look for a second at the [[ahd:61/94/P0079400.html|definition]] of the word, the relevant part of which I will highlight here: "An artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of another work for comic effect." That is ''exactly'' what this game is. But never mind that. TBC, via their representative, ''specifically'' asked us to use that word. It stays. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 18:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

== They're s'posed to what? ==

Where can I find out more about the copyright issue?  Did Mattel try to sue them or something? [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 23:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
:We don't know. All we know is [[Talk:Who Said What Now?#Add some links|this was always "Who Said What"]], and the rest doesn't need to be elaborated on. --{{User:TotalSpaceshipGuy3/sig}} 23:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
::I don't know if we can pull that off since the original name is still used in [[Secret Pages]] and [[Old Flash Stuff]]. [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 22:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

==Homsar==
Hey, Homsar has a line but it's not translated to text!

'''HOMSAR:'''AaAaAh, My cheese is 50 cent!

-Ben from the fanstuff wiki

:<s>You can just put it on the page you know :)</s> This must be an addition to the original because I've noticed that all of the timings for the subtitles are out of sync now.{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 23:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
::Nevermind, I didn't realize the page was locked from editing.{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 23:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
::An administrator will need to add this.{{User:Bryanc/sig}} 02:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

why is it quieter? {{User:Slipknot6477/sig}} 16:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:I don't think it's quieter. It sounds different because it was added later. By the time TBC added his line, what they recorded had a better sound quality than the other buttons. {{User:Homestar-winner/sig}} 17:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Just something I'd thought I'd say, the cowbell at the end of Strong Bad's line is muted.

== Stuff To Add ==

*The [[Handheld Games Menu]] still calls this game Who Said What?
*Include a link in Marzipan's quote to [[The Only Girl]].  Thank you for your time. [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 05:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

:The first one would fit better on [[Handheld Games Menu]] than on this page, I think. As for the second one, we usually don't link characters' speech in transcripts. I tried figuring out a different way to work it in, but nothing came to me. Any suggestions? {{User:Trey56/sig}} 05:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
::I'd say add is as a fun fact:
::*Marzipan's line refers to the fact that she is considered [[The Only Girl|the only female lead]].
::Feel free to reword to make it sound better. --[[User:Stux|Stux]] 13:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I think that sounds prooty grood &mdash; I {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Who_Said_What_Now%3F&diff=451063&oldid=449987 added it}}. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 15:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
::::Another thing to mention is that Homestar doesn't have a mouth on his picture. I'm still cheesed off that this page is protected in the first place (I'm not going to ask why). Can we just ban it from annonies? Or is it that bad? --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 00:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
:::::Please see [http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Talk%3AWho_Said_What_Now%3F&diff=461958&oldid=461925]. Sorry about this, and thanks for understanding.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 00:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
::::::Should headers for Remarks, Inside References, Real-World References, and Fast Forward be added?  [[Everything Else, Volume 2]] has less Fun Facts but still uses headers. [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 17:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Here's some facts I couldn't find on the page:
*"Each day we die a little more" will be repeated in [[Strong Sad's Lament]] and [[Halloween Potion-ma-jig]].
*"I'm [[the only girl]]" will be referenced in [[Halloween Potion-ma-jig]] and [[Why Come Only One Girl?]] (If we add this Stux's fact might become unneccesary) [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 21:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
:If you guys don't find those facts notable or headers necessary at least tell me why. [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 02:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
::Sorry, I think your suggestions were merely overlooked, not purposefully ignored. I thought they were good ideas, and I {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Who_Said_What_Now%3F&diff=496680&oldid=462011 added them}}. Best, {{User:Trey56/sig}} 05:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Noticed something.  The page says: Coach Z's "more than 2 problems" are later referenced on Main Page 11.  Let's get "prablems" misspelled the way it should be (as in the transcript), shall we?  {{User:OptimisticFool/sig}} 22:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Like I've said below a while ago, should we mention that this is the only old game to link to the old games menu instead of the current one? {{User:Homestar-winner/sig}} 21:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

== New Fun Fact ==

I noticed that the characters on the buttons resemble the character designs from the back page of the FAQ. Just puttin' this up here, in case you want to STUFF it. [[User:76.184.199.4|76.184.199.4]] 02:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
:What part of the FAQ? {{User:Homestar-winner/sig}} 02:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

::Oh, you mean the static characters on the last page &mdash; they're very close, but I can find subtle differences in all of them except Pom Pom... {{User:Trey56/sig}} 03:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

== For kids? ==

Anyone else notice that Homsar's picture in this resembles the one used in [[For Kids]] in [[Whaddaya Know, Haddi-Man?]]'s theme song? -[[User:Free Bagels|Free Bagels]] 01:20, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

== Fact/Goof ==

Is it a fact or a goof that the narrator refers to every character with a "the" infront of their name except for The Cheat?
It should be "the The Cheat says..." -[[User:JamesDean|JamesDean]] 19:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:you forgot the KOT and the poopsmith, both of whom have [[integral article]]s. not a goof or a relevant fact. {{User:DeFender1031/sig}} 19:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::The King and Poopsmith are not ''always'' integral like The Cheat is, though. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 19:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
:::still, they are mostly, as evidenced by their page names [[The King of Town|'''The''' King of Town]] and [[The Poopsmith|'''The''' Poopsmith]]. Ergo, still not relevant. {{User:DeFender1031/sig}} 19:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
::If this toon were created today, then it might be different, but it was from way back when they hadn't firmed up the whole integral article thing. As such, it's not really that notable. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 20:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

==Homsar's line==

Would it, erm, hurt if we could at least say "Assumably, Homsar's line was recorded later than the rest, hence the difference in sound quality" or something? It looks kind of silly as it is. D: [[User:Evan|Evan]] 23:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
:I think it's fine as it is. It's not silly at all.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 00:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
::I realize and understand the circumstances of the situation, but I do think the article needs to mention that Homsar and "Kidelectrix" are later additions to the game. I don't think doing so would be a big deal. -- [[User:139.78.10.40|139.78.10.40]] 23:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

== The old game ==

Wow, since when was this changed? I think it used to be a Spin 'n Say, because that redirects here. Where you pulled a string and the quotes cycled through 11 different guys. [[User:75.46.60.77|75.46.60.77]] 17:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
:The name changed a little over four months ago, and then the game itself was updated about two months ago, because of the work of outside forces. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 21:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah.  M*ttel got [[The Brothers Chaps]] to change it because they felt their copyrights were being skimped.  (M*ttel manufactures Sp*n 'n S*y, ya know.) [[User:71.231.56.40|71.231.56.40]] 21:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
:None of that is a secret; we are just choosing not to discuss the details at present. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 21:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

um... who said what nows article is crazy and we need to get the spin and say/who said what now thing finished. most of its discussion is with secret pages. we got to get this settled in a pole home. [[User|slipknot6477|slipknot6477]]
:We ''have'' finished the page and the only problems are people who continue to bring it up. I'm not sure what you mean by "pole home", but there is no need to continue discussion about the previous happenings of Who Said What Now?. --{{User:TotalSpaceshipGuy3/sig}} 15:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
::I think all the hush hush secrecy is a little bit confusing and unnecessary.  If a representative of TBC asked us to not mention the old version of this game, can't we at least say '''that''' much on the main article?  Otherwise it's confusing and makes people ask about it on here, which we're appearantly trying to avoid.  Just put:  "Due to a request by Karen Wagner (or whoever it was), details about the original version of Who Said What Now? have been intentionally omitted."--{{User:Johnny Jupiter/sig}} 03:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

== Old Games ==

Is it notable that ''this'' game's back button links to the [[HR:oldgames.html|old games]] menu unlike the other old games, which link to the [[HR:games.html|new games]] menu? And if so, could some sysop add it? {{User:Homestar-winner/sig}} 22:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

== Current Status ==

Did anyone try emailing Karen Wagner to see if it is safe to unlock this page and [[Why Come Only One Girl]]? [[User:Bad Bad Guy|Bad Bad Guy]] 22:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
:Yes. I received a response telling us that she would talk it over with the Chaps and get back to us. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 03:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
::Any news yet? Did you e-mail again? - [[User:furrykef|furrykef]] ([[User_talk:furrykef|Talk at me]]) 06:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

== Circumstances outside our control? ==
Can you explain that? I can't understand how anything is outside our control, since we aren't affiliated with the site or its creators, nor with Mattel. We can do as we please.
:Sure, we can do as we please. And it pleases us to support the creators of our favourite online cartoon. A no-brainer, if you will. Because we can, not because it's outside our control. The ''circumstances'' are outside our control.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 03:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

== In My Experience ==

A lot of users seem very confused by the changes in this toon and their effect on the wiki. Let me see if I can help. '''PLEASE NOTE:''' I am not an administrator of this site, and I am not informed on any private communications from Harmless Junk. I'm just relating my personal experience, and you can draw whatever connections you think are appropriate. It's probably unproductive to try to find out exactly how solid those connections are.

I used to work for a software company that published large clip art collections. The collections were so large, and the sources so varied (and many overseas) that it was inevitable that now and then something would creep in that infringed on somebody else's rights. A little education: This was almost always a ''trademark'' infringement, not a ''copyright'' infringement. They are two very different things which you can research on your own time. Possibly relevant here is that trademarks are much more nebulous, and determining trademark infringement can often be very subjective and depend on what a judge had for breakfast.

When this happened, and it bothered the owner of a trademark, we would usually get a "cease and desist" letter asking nicely if we could either remove or alter the offending images. Part of my job was keeping track of who had contacted us, the details of what they thought infringed, and what images probably bothered them. That second part could be very, ''very'' nitpicky, such as Carnival Cruises claiming that putting little "wings" on the sides of a ship's smokestack infringed on their marks, or Dairy Queen claiming that a soft serve cone became a trademark Dairy Queen cone the moment the ice cream had a curl at the top. (And don't get me started on the Red Cross.)

Always, to my knowledge, these issues were resolved after one or two letters from the owner and some annoying editing work on our part. Never litigation. However, the threat was always there. If we missed a few generic cars that looked a little too much like Beetles in our many thousands of car images, and Volkswagen felt like being jerks about it, they could easily have dragged us into court and gotten a nice chunk of damages out of our revenue.

If a proceeding like that took place, the plaintiffs would be able to subpoena any of our internal documents and records that they could convince a judge were at all pertinent to the suit. My emails to my supervisor, for example. Of course, if there were documents ''outside'' our company that were also pertinent, they could subpoena those too. Like if some fan website had user posts pointing out that "Car 236 looks just like a '63 Beetle convertible!" Due to the very nature of trademarks, that's actually a particularly damning piece of evidence, because it proves that at least one member of the consuming public associated the non-Volkswagen-created image with Volkswagen. Unlike copyrights, perception is often more important than intent in determining trademark infringement, which is what makes it so scary. Get enough of that to indicate consensus, and you've basically lost any possibility of arguing that there's no infringement.

For these reasons, the company lawyer was a paranoid ogre about what we could and could not say in writing about these issues. If I had to email someone to discuss a specific complaint or possible infringement, I had to use codewords. ("Do you think the fenders on that, um, banana are too round?") When you're a defendant, less paper trail is always better. No matter how innocent you may think it is. You don't want the plaintiff to have ''anything'' they can hold up and say, "Here's the proof they knew there was a specific problem, and yet here it still is in their next release."

Hope that helps anyone understand anything. I can tell you I found it confusing and irritating until I got used to it myself.

--[[User:TheNicestGuy|TheNicestGuy]] 19:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

::With all that in mind, it really makes me wonder why HRWiki insists on hosting the old round-fendered banana menu which actually has the trademarked phrase spelled out right in it. Without leaving any paper trail, I'll just say: I'm looking right at the offending text in a Flash file hosted on hrwiki.org right now. Someone took the trouble to prevent that menu from continuing to link to the copy of the offending Handheld Game which inexplicably still lives on www.homestarrunner.com, but, that wasa half-measure at best. Naturally, hrwiki has no control over what www.homestarrunner.com still has "hidden" on their webhost. But hrwiki.org is making an awful lot of noise that sounds like "We can NOT say any of that!" while serving the exact thing that everybody says can't be said. [[User:198.49.180.40|198.49.180.40]] 00:01, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
:::The old name is not a secret. It's Spin 'n Say. It's mentioned several times on this page. The old Flash file reflects the fact that the game used to have a different name. Big deal. We don't point to the old file of the game, nor do we give instructions on how to find it; thus, it's concealed from the general public ''enough'' not to worry about, even if technically it can be found if one knows exactly where to look. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 01:23, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

::::Right. Another point to keep in mind about trademarks is that the watchdogs in the big corporate legal departments bark ''a lot'', but actual bites are not as common. The barking is due to another little quirk of trademark law, which is that you can actually lose the exclusive right to your trademark&mdash;even a registered one&mdash;by not using it or not defending it against infringement. A trademark isn't the sort of thing you either have or you don't. It can be strong or weak, and have varying amounts of influence beyond its typical market, depending mostly upon how well-recognized and well-associated it is. Ignoring misuses of your trademark can lead to it being "watered down". Any marketing exec will tell you that strong brand recognition is one of the most important factors in commercial success, so this is why owners of brand names that are under constant threat of being "genericized", like Kleenex and Band-Aid, go so far as to take out ads in writers' trade magazines, educating the readers that these are in fact registered trademarks and not words to be thrown around willy-nilly, thank you very much.

::::So C & D letters are a dime a dozen. You'd be a fool to ignore one, but unless your infringement is truly egregious, your chances of being sued are slim for a variety of reasons. Lawsuits are outrageously expensive and very unpredictable; most owners won't take that gamble unless there's a lot at stake. A lot more than a silly little web toon, for example. Another reason is that suits against offenders who aren't visibly turning a profit off the infringement have a tendency to backfire in a publicity sense. A good example is the [[Wikipedia:Emblems of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement#Johnson & Johnson's lawsuit against the American Red Cross about the emblem|recent suit]] that Johnson & Johnson filed against the American Red Cross over the use of their logo on first aid kits. Of course it will be hard for J & J not to look like a bad guy in that, but ironically, as I hinted above, the Red Cross was one of the firms that had sent my company letters. (And by far the biggest pain in the twees to comply with. Those freakin' crosses were ''everywhere''!) I hear their C & D factory is rather busy in general.

::::So to actually attempt to relate this to the matter at hand, I would ''guess'' that Mattel has no intention of taking Harmless Junk to court, and no particular interest in actually obliterating the original game. They get to satisfy the motions they have to go through, and do it quietly, if it's just removed from general public view and replaced with a new version with minimal fuss.
::::--[[User:TheNicestGuy|TheNicestGuy]] 03:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

:::::Another thing to note about why this might be any kind of deal re: trademarks: the reason any company will do this over a trademark is because unlike copyrights, a trademark is only as good as the effort you put into defending it.  If for some reason, someone else started using that trademarked name and Mattel had taken them to court, they could point to the game here and say "Look, these guys didn't care enough about their trademark to enforce it here, so they have given up rights to claim it," and there's a chance a judge would agree.  So, simply to cover ''their'' butts as well, Mattel's gotta take care of their own business on this.  It's the reason that Kleenex and Xerox make such a fuss about their names becoming genericized, because if they let such things go without challenge they could lose the ability to defend their trademarks against someone making a more serious effort to infringe on their trademark.--[[User:Big Dog|Big Dog]] 06:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
:::::Didn't even realized you'd already covered that.  That will teach me to skim talk pages.--[[User:Big Dog|Big Dog]] 06:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
::::::Here's two counterargument to all of this: Spin n' Say was a ''parody.'' Last I checked, ''parodies'' have ALWAYS been defended as fair use.  Secondly, if I recall, there was an episode of Family Guy which had a parody of the same toy.  If they didn't get sued, well, then I'm skeptical about what the intent truly is.  You see, Family Guy is produced by a Hollywood company which is much more powerful and has very good (in skill, not as in good guys) lawyers and a large staff, whereas H*R is produced by all of five people and is produced independently, and thus Harmless Junk probably doesn't have very good lawyers.  And if the TBC wanted to avoid a trademark suit, they could state "we're not affiliated with Mattel" or something like that so as to not confuse people.  If you weren't allowed to talk about something in your creative works that's already been copyrighted or trademarked, it would violate free speech, which in my opinion is a much more important right than copyright.  The only lesson we can learn from all this is that the world is run by people with a lot of money and very few morals. --[[User:Crazyswordsman|Crazyswordsman]] 02:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

==Notice==
There should be a notice on this page stating that it is protected. [[User:124.181.45.149|124.181.45.149]] 07:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
:First of all, tagging pages for deletion to get people's attention is very bad form, and is frankly obnoxious. secondly, there are many pages on the wiki that are protected, i don't see any reason to have a notice for this one. {{User:DeFender1031/sig}} 08:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

== The Luau ==

Seems that an older version of WSWN is accessible from the tofu-Homestar "main page" at the end of The Luau, in the updates corner. Oversight on TBC's part? [[User:Gus|Gus]] 20:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
:We know. Probably. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 20:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

== Question ==

Ok, I know that whatever this originally was could land TBC in a lawsuit, I understand that part. What I don't understand is, how does the wiki mentioning it compromise the safety of the main site? Obviously, I'm not well-rehearsed in the areas of copyright and trademark law, but I'd still like to know. [[User:DonZabu|DonZabu]] 06:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

:This game used to have a different name and a different shape. We're aware of that. Due to circumstances outside our control, we're not going into further detail at this time. Until we are able to discuss it further, please do not ask about it or worry about it too much. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.&nbsp;-- [[User:Tom|Tom]] 11:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

::How very Orwellian :)

== I had one of these ==

I didn't have a homestar runner one! But a farm animal one like "the cow says: mooo." did anyone else have one? --[[User:Stong L. Bod|Stong L. Bod]] 17:03, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
:I'm afraid this is a forum discussion, Mr. Bod. --[[Special:Contributions/68.94.94.234|68.94.94.234]] 17:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

== Add date please ==

Please add the date of "June 27, 2001, or earlier" to the page, if you have permissions. --[[User:TimMierz|TimMierz]] 20:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, someone please add it. {{User:Theycallmefree/sig}} 17:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 2: / Line 2: @@
 |-
 |[[Image:Warning.png|30px|Butt's twelve by pies!]]
-|'''Note:''' This game used to have a different name and a different shape. This bare fact is tentatively allowed, but for now don't go into detail.
+|'''Note:''' This game used to have a different name and a different shape. We're aware of that. Due to circumstances outside our control, we're not going into further detail at this time. Until we are able to discuss it further, please do not ask about it or worry about it too much. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.
 |}<br />
@@ Line 143: / Line 143: @@
 Like I've said below a while ago, should we mention that this is the only old game to link to the old games menu instead of the current one? {{User:Homestar-winner/sig}} 21:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
-I don’t hear a the before Bubs -[[Special:Contributions/50.234.189.45|50.234.189.45]] 22:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 == New Fun Fact ==
@@ Line 255: / Line 253: @@
 Please add the date of "June 27, 2001, or earlier" to the page, if you have permissions. --[[User:TimMierz|TimMierz]] 20:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 :Yes, someone please add it. {{User:Theycallmefree/sig}} 17:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
-::I believe that the date is deliberately missing from the article due to circumstances outside the wiki's control. If these circumstances are ever sorted out, we may be able to add it to the article. Don't hold your breath, though. {{User:The Chort/sig}} 17:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
-:::Dad being in the legal process, I know it can take quite a while. {{User:Theycallmefree/sig}} 17:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
-== Not a reference ==
-It says on the page that Homsar's "50 Cent" quote was previously mentioned on the [[Email]] contact page. But on the Email contact page, it said "Fitty Cent". {{User:That'sBupkis/sig}} 21:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
-:"Fitty Cent" is a common way of pronouncing artist 50 Cent's name. --[[User:DorianGray|DorianGray]] 21:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
-== Back button ==
-Could someone mention on this article that this is the only old game to have a Back button linking to the [[Handheld Games Menu]] instead of the [[Scrolling Shooter Games Menu]]? {{User:Shine Sprite/sig}} 00:53, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
-== It's been 2 years!!! ==
-It's been 4 years since Karen Wagner asked the admins to protect this page and all other pages mentioning the toy. I think the copyright issues between TBC and ''[Name removed by copyright order]'' have been resolved. This and all the other pages mentioning the toy need to be unlocked. {{User:Dagoth/sig}} 03:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
-:Just because you ''think'' it's been resolved doesn't make it true.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 06:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
-:...And? Even if they were, there is no new info to put in those article. Why would anyone want to edit them? {{User:Elcool/sig}} 08:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
-Okay, I get that we don't know whether it has been resolved or not. It would cause all types of edit wars that only a well experienced admin has seen. But WHY are we so compact that we shouldn't note the change on the article's page. A major rewrite and name change certainly are notable. Why don't we just say something along the lines of "Due to legal issues, the game was remade about 2007. It used to be named Spin 'n Say, and was in the shape of one". Really, there is no harm in mentioning the change, right? We can just leave it at that. We don't need to unlock it, just acknowledge the change. Unless there is a reason. Is there?--[[User:Jellote|Jellote]] [[User talk:Jellote|wuz]] [[Special:Contributions/Jellote|here]] 23:36, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
-== Look, I know we can't speak of the Forbidden version, but... ==
-...could we put in Real World References something like:
-"The way the quotes are phrased is akin to Mattel's 'See 'n' Say' toy."
-You know, something to insinuate the original game without actually linking to it. *wink wink, nudge nudge*
-Because I think there should be at least some sign that it's related to the Speak 'n' Say, even if we can't say what it is directly. Not everyone reads the Discussions.
-:Since not everyone reads the discussions, that's why the orange notice box was put into place at the top of the page.  Until an admin removes that notice, there is still [http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=embargo an embargo] (see first verb definition) on everything about the original version.  Trying to skimp around that embargo won't be doing TBC and/or the admins any favors. &mdash; [[User:Ngamer01|Ngamer01]] 13:58, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
-== Request for an Admin ==
-Could a sysop please change the Wikipedia link to [[Texas Instruments]] to an internal link? {{User:Theycallmefree/sig}} 14:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
-: Done. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 17:46, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
-:: Thanks. {{User:Theycallmefree/sig}} 18:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
-== 7 Years  ==
-Why are questions on the talk page about this being deleted?
-The talk page is where we are supposed to "Talk" about things.
-Anyway, it's been seven years, this is getting ridiculous.
-The warning template says "at a later date", you can't lock this page forever. {{User:Broncotroll/sig}}
-:#Due to '''circumstances outside our control'''.
-:#To talk about what to do with the page's content. This topic has long since been decided.
-:#And unless something changes, it'll be seven more years, and seven more after that.
-:#No it doesn't, it says "Until we are able to discuss it further", nothing about a later date. And yes, the page is, in fact, locked indefinitely. {{User:DeFender1031/sig}} 16:39, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
-::Yeah, that wasn't exactly verbatim, that was just what I remembered from it.
-::I'm not trying to be challenging, really, I will stop talking about it, the only reason it bothers me is 1. because we aren't allowed to talk about why we aren't allowed to talk about the original game, and 2. It is obviously Fair Use.
-I apologize. {{User:Broncotroll/sig}}
-:::It may be fair use as a parody, but think about the costs TBC (and this wiki's staff) would suffer if they all had to fight this in court to prove this is a lawful parody/fair use.  Also consider the DMCA and how cutthroat some corporations can be.  Even if TBC and the wiki could win, the one that DMCA/embargo'd the parody could stall for time and bankrupt TBC and this wiki just on legal costs alone and plus the H*R site and wiki could be at risk to be legally taken down in their entirety.  TBC and this wiki lose either way so they complied with the DMCA/embargo orders.  Also consider TBC's work with Hollywood these days.  Their career could have ended if they had a DMCA court-case dragging on them before the last baby hiatus (before the Hollywood hiatus kicked in).  &mdash; [[User:Ngamer01|Ngamer01]] 16:53, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
-== Missing Info ==
-Can someone please add "articles with missing info" to this? It's missing the release date of the original game. {{User:Broncotroll/sig}} 05:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
-== Transcript Grammar ==
-Could somebody please correct Strong Sad's line? The period is supposed to go inside the quotation marks, not outside.—[[User:Bde1982|Bde1982]] 23:29, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
-: Aight. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 00:20, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
-::Thanks.—[[User:Bde1982|Bde1982]] 17:55, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
-== Update navbar ==
-The forward nav should go to [[Astro-Lite 2600]] to be consistent with the other old games pages which are in alphabetical order, as RickTommy recently pointed out. If someone with access to this page could fix that, it would be most appreciated. {{User:DeFender1031/sig}} 01:22, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
-:Done. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 01:45, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
-== Fact ==
-Could someone add in goofs or remarks that Strong Mad's singlet is missing it's M? --[[User:Geonightman|Geonightman]] 07:32, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
-== My Cheese is 50 Cent ==
-I don't think he's referring to the rapper. [[User:Wolf O&#39;Donnel|Wolf O&#39;Donnel]] 02:11, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
-:I tend to agree. On the [[Email]] page, it's spelled "Fitty cent" on the stamps, but in this game Homsar definitely says "fifty" with an ''-f-'' in the middle. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 17:02, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
-==Tentatively Speaking==
-If we're allowed to mention that another version existed, are we allowed to say that it's the same one on the [[Why Come Only One Girl?]] page or are we keeping [[too cool|50 adaptors]] worth of distance on this side of caution? Just wanna know before I accidentally summon lawsuits. [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] 22:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
-:I'm hoping we can get to the point where we can drop all restrictions site-wide, but that's not my decision to make unilaterally. Let me talk it over first and get back. In the meantime, don't add that to this page. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:58, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
-::Alright, but don't censor me man, gets my blood boiling. {{User:CoachZiscool1978/sig}}
-:::Don't disregard the page notice and it won't be an issue. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 15:41, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
-==I noticed Wolf was editing==
-So does that mean we can edit it? --[[User:Jeffjman|J∃ffJ]][[User_talk:Jeffjman|Man]][[File:jeffjsigchrismas.png|23px]] 11:29, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
-: The editing block has been relaxed to registered users for a while, but do keep in mind that there are certain things about this toon that we're still not talking about. --{{User:Jay/sig}} 21:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
-:: Got it --[[User:Jeffjman|J∃ffJ]][[User_talk:Jeffjman|Man]][[File:jeffjsigchrismas.png|23px]] 11:06, 22 April 2022 (UTC)