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| | :I still don't understand why this is a HRWiki page. Unlike the rest of the pages in this namespace, this has ''nothing to do with the wiki''. It's an extremely important event in Homestar Runner history. An event this important deserves to have a proper article. The fact that this page is about a lack of content doesn't change anything. Why does that make any difference anyway? This wiki isn't only about Homestar Runner content— it's about the entire body of work (which is currently on hiatus). And even if this wiki ''was'' only about content, that would only make a lack of content more notable. However, I am not saying this page is perfect. In fact, it could probably use a rewrite. But I definitely think it should be a namespace article (because, like I explained before, it's about the body of work instead of the wiki), and I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't be. If you still disagree, I'd appreciate you explaining why. In conclusion, I say '''move.''' {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 05:55, 19 April 2017 (UTC) | | :I still don't understand why this is a HRWiki page. Unlike the rest of the pages in this namespace, this has ''nothing to do with the wiki''. It's an extremely important event in Homestar Runner history. An event this important deserves to have a proper article. The fact that this page is about a lack of content doesn't change anything. Why does that make any difference anyway? This wiki isn't only about Homestar Runner content— it's about the entire body of work (which is currently on hiatus). And even if this wiki ''was'' only about content, that would only make a lack of content more notable. However, I am not saying this page is perfect. In fact, it could probably use a rewrite. But I definitely think it should be a namespace article (because, like I explained before, it's about the body of work instead of the wiki), and I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't be. If you still disagree, I'd appreciate you explaining why. In conclusion, I say '''move.''' {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 05:55, 19 April 2017 (UTC) |
| | ::I have nothing to add besides I agree with Gfd. I think this means the majority consensus of this discussion is pro-moving it into normal namespace, therefore it warrants an actual discussion. {{User:The thing/sig}} 15:49, 19 April 2017 (UTC) | | ::I have nothing to add besides I agree with Gfd. I think this means the majority consensus of this discussion is pro-moving it into normal namespace, therefore it warrants an actual discussion. {{User:The thing/sig}} 15:49, 19 April 2017 (UTC) |
| - | :::First of all, consensus is not majority. It is overwhelming agreement. You don't have that. I continue to oppose this article's presence in the mainspace as it does not concern actual content. Rather, it was created because wiki users wanted information about what was going on with H*R. That's why it's in the HRWiki space: it's a service to our users, not something article-worthy. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 00:33, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
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| - | ::::Yeah, this page is essentially our own log that we're keeping for ourselves (in fact, it could probably be reorganized a bit to be more explicitly that). While I wouldn't rule out its ''ever'' being moved to the mainspace, I don't think it currently merits full article status. — [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 00:51, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
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| - | :::::[[flashback|Oh, now I understand.]] Thanks! I never realized that this page wasn't supposed to be an actual article. You had me confused for a few years there... this page should really have a notice or something at the top that says "This is not supposed to be an actual wiki article, just a guide for our users" or something similar. Otherwise it could easily be mistaken as a real article (in the HRWiki namespace for no reason), as I thought it was. Anyway, my opinion hasn't really changed— I still think we should make a real page about the hiatus ''at some point'', just not in its current condition. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 20:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
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| - | ::::::What does this page need before it gets made into an official article? It seems all right to me. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 01:12, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | :::::::As before, I believe it should neither now nor ever be moved to the mainspace. My reasoning is unchanged from above. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 03:13, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | ::::::::And I'll restate my agreement with Heimstern. Main namespace pages are for H*R content, not for the lack thereof. {{User:DeFender1031/sig}} 03:46, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | My reasoning is unchanged as well. Yes, this page isn't about content, but why does that matter? This wiki is about Homestar Runner ''in general'', not exclusively its content. [[Matt Chapman]] is not Homestar Runner content, and he's about as relevant to the body of work as the hiatus is, and yet he has a page. Also, the main reason this page is in the HRWiki namespace is because, at the time, there wasn't enough information. Now that the hiatus has mostly been explained in various interviews and toons, this is no longer the case. When the discussion began, the page had three paragraphs, and it now has over a dozen. It clearly has enough information, so why is this still in the HRWiki namespace? Plus, it has been said that this article is only meant to be a service to users who wanted to learn more. But isn't that the point of all pages? The [[Sterrance]] page, for instance, is for fans who want to learn more about Sterrance. I see no major differences between this and a regular mainspace article. Not to mention, the hiatus is most likely the most important event in the history of Homestar Runner. If an event with this much historical significance doesn't deserve an article, why is there a page on [[The Strongs' Capsela]]? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 00:10, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | :Matt Chapman has made several appearances as himself within the H*R content (at least one of which was on the website). I'd say he's far more relevant to the body of work than the hiatus is. And it isn't that it isn't about H*R content, it's that it ''is'' about there ''not'' being any H*R content. In fact, Heimstern pointed out when the article was moved to the project namespace that "our article space is not a news service". Defender talked about how this is a page about nothing higher up on the talk page, where he also said it belongs in this namespace as oppose to the mainspace. I also think that saying that nothing happening is the most important thing that happened in the history of Homestar Runner is directly nonsensical. If you were writing a wiki on the history of the world, would you want an article about what didn't happen during the Dark Ages? {{User:The Knights Who Say Ni/sig}} 04:12, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | ::#I agree that our article space is not a news service, but this page isn't intended to be news. It's just documenting events, similar to [[Flashforward 2006 Seattle - 28 Feb 2006|this page]], for example — I wouldn't consider that page to be news.
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| - | ::#As for "this is a page about nothing"... yes, it is. But this nothingness replaced ''something'', and that makes it worth documenting. Just like the [[Lack of Visible Arms]] page — technically, a lack of arms is just nothing, but since normal humans have arms, an armless character is notable.
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| - | ::#And I think nothing happening ''is'' important to Homestar Runner, because like I said before, the standard is ''something'' happening. This nothingness started nearly a decade ago, and the website still hasn't completely recovered. Think of it this way. If a TV show was cancelled by the network, and revived several years later, wouldn't the show's wiki have a page on its cancellation? It's an important moment for the show that altered its content significantly.
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| - | ::#Also, The Dark Ages analogy isn't completely accurate. If all life vanished off the face of the Earth, and slowly returned over the next few decades, I would consider that a major event in the history of the world, and definitely make a page for it. Not a page about what ''didn't'' happen, but what ''did''. It would be a page about the event itself, just like this page. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 00:31, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | :::#This page documents breaks in the hiatus. But it documents multiple events, sort of like a news station would. [[Flashforward 2006 Seattle - 28 Feb 2006|That page]] documents a specific event — an interactive presentation that the Chaps did.
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| - | :::#I think the fact that the nothingness replaced ''something'' is the reason this page exists at all. Having it in this namespace doesn't mean it isn't being documented.
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| - | :::#I'm not saying that nothing happening isn't important, I'm just saying that it's not ''as'' important as something happening. For example, The Cheat pulling the Robot's plug is more important to the website because... that happened. If a TV show was cancelled by the network, and revived several years later, the show's wiki would have a brief mention of its cancellation, not have an entire page dedicated to it.
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| - | :::#If a lack of arms is technically nothing, then: If all life vanished off the face of the Earth, it technically couldn't return slowly over the next few decades. Now, if an asteroid hit the earth causing a mass extinction of the dinosaurs over the next few thousand years, but some manner of flora and fauna survived, we'd have something to write about. And what I meant with the dark ages analogy was: obviously ''something'' happened during that time, but we know far less about it than what happened before it and after it. Likewise, there's plenty we know about what happened before the hiatus, and plenty about the breaks in the hiatus, but there isn't much to say about the hiatus itself. {{User:The Knights Who Say Ni/sig}} 01:44, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | ::::All right, you guys have made some good points. While I don't necessarily 100% agree, I'd be fine leaving this page in the HRWiki namespace. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 00:24, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
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| - | I'm really sorry for bringing this up so many times. I'm sure everyone's sick of this discussion by now, and obviously this page being in the HRWiki namespace is far from the greatest issue our planet is facing, and I don't mean to make a big deal out of it (despite what the length of my reply would lead you to believe; I must've gotten a bit carried away). But no matter how many arguments I hear, it just never quite sits right with me. Could be a stubborn bias of mine, but I keep reading the disclaimer at the top of the page (''"This is not intended to be an official wiki article, simply a service to our users who wish to know more about hiatuses within the body of work"'') and asking myself, what's the difference? Is not ''every'' article intended as a service to visitors who wish to know more about a certain subject (this in particular being one of the most relevant ones)? This is the only page in the HRWiki namespace written like a regular article, and linked to like a regular article, yet for (in my opinion, somewhat arbitrary) reasons isn't a regular article.
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| - | The page was originally moved to the HRWiki namespace because it consisted almost entirely of speculation. Not much was known about the hiatus, so a HRWiki page was created in an attempt to inform users of what little we knew (and suspected) at the time. This page was also planned to have more of a focus on the wiki's communication with the Brothers Chaps regarding the hiatus, but that didn't seem to end up happening, so as it stands, this HRWiki namespace page has nothing to do with the wiki itself. Since then, the hiatus has been explained at length in multiple interviews (and much of this information is compiled in the article), so not only is this page now entirely factual, but decently long as well. I'd say it more than meets the standards for a mainspace page.
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| - | One of the main arguments against this page being in the mainspace is that it's a page about nothing. I disagree — over the years, it had been established that toons would be released regularly. The hiatus changed that, and by definition any change is ''something''. If the hiatus never happened, and this page was instead about the steady release of toons from 2009 to the present day, ''that'' would be a page about nothing. There's nothing to say about something simply continuing to happen. Any change must have a reason, and this page thoroughly documents those reasons. It's been argued that something as inconsequential as The Cheat pulling The Robot's plug is more relevant to H*R than the hiatus because one is something, and the other is nothing. Of these two events, which caused the most confusion, speculation, and discussion? Which altered the release of Homestar Runner content for over a decade? Which of these events do we know more about? The hiatus was the main point of discussion in the fandom for years. Doesn't something (because it ''is'' something) that notable deserve a proper article? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'd say that distinction between "something" and "nothing" is ultimately arbitrary. Throughout this talk page, it keeps being brought up — "this shouldn't be a page because it's about a lack of content" — but never have I seen anyone clarify ''why'' this distinction is relevant in the first place. We have articles on all sorts of things, and I can't see why a page about a lack of content would be off limits. In fact, to me, the quality of this article serves as proof that such a page can work.
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| - | However, there are other valid arguments against my point, some I even agree with to some extent, but ultimately they're not enough to sway my opinion. One of these points is that there's not much to say about the hiatus — this complaint has mainly concerned previous revisions of the page, and with the inclusion of interview quotes and factual explanations, there's now plenty to say about it. It's also been said that this page is less about the hiatus itself and more about its breaks. This is something I can definitely understand, but the way I see it, the two subjects are inexorably linked. You can't tell a story and leave out the conclusion. Information such as how and when the hiatus stopped is extremely relevant to the hiatus itself. (However, I wouldn't be opposed to removing the last few paragraphs which merely list major updates since 2014 — now that irregular updates have been established as the norm, chronicling those updates could rightfully be described, in my opinion, as paragraphs about nothing. I also wouldn't be opposed to renaming the page something like "Hiatuses and Returns" to better reflect the scope.) It's also been stated that this article documents multiple events like a news station would, and that our article space is not a news service (the latter sentiment being one I agree with). This argument implies that this page is ''only'' useful during current events, and that if regular updates resume, this page will cease to be relevant. I disagree; I see this page as less of a news service and more of a historical document. The purpose of a knowledge base is to document things, and this page does exactly that. The information on this page will always be relevant to those who go looking for it, so it makes sense for this page to be in a more obvious location than in its current namespace. The mainspace is intended for pages related to H*R, and the hiatus certainly qualifies.
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| - | In conclusion, this doesn't really matter, but I thought I'd articulate my thoughts anyway, since I did a less-than-stellar job in previous years. (Also, this last suggestion isn't super important, but would it help to add some statistics to the page? Listing the longest hiatuses in some sort of table could make the page more documentative for those who don't see this page as article-worthy, and I don't recall this information being readily documented elsewhere. Just a thought.) Okay I'm done now. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 09:05, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
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| - | :Gfd pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. As it is now, this page is more than deserving of being named a proper main-namespace article. [[User:Keegster2|Keegster2]] 00:17, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
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| - | ::Well-articulated. I think {{p|l=http://hrwiki.org/w/index.php?title=HRWiki:Hiatuses&oldid=726228 the earlier revisions}} were much more vague and informal, befitting the HRWiki: category, but after a decade-plus the scope and detail of information covered on this page is comparable to a "real" article like [[homestarrunner.com]] or [[Post-Flash Site Update]], where the real-world focus means that there necessarily must be some editoralizing and explanation beyond [[Timeline of Homestar Runner|simple regurgitation of facts]]. Like you say, having multiple interviews with TBC that ''directly'' comment on the break makes it very important to H*R and worthy of a main-space article.
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| - | ::However, I do have some concerns about the structure of the page as it is now:
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| - | ::* The intro section has gaps in updating that, by comparison, are hardly remarkable. No Toon hiatus lasted over 50 days which pale in comparison to the rest of the article.
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| - | ::* The pause in sbemails largely coincides with the overall hiatus, it is a little confusing to equate "they focused on other toons for nine months" with "they stopped updating the site for several years". This coverage may be better suited for the [[Strong Bad Email]] article (lede, fun facts, new section?).
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| - | ::* There are a lot of redundant bits like "In [x] 2014 interview, Matt said he wanted to make a toon in the next 4-6 months" and then "in 2015 they made a new toon". The article could use some cleanup to cut down on this sort of thing.
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| - | ::* As you mention, {{w|scope creep}} starts to set in as the article covers years post-2015. Obviously [[H*R.com updates 2017|fewer things happened in 2017]] when [[H*R.com updates 2007|compared to 2007]], but the stubby paragraphs aren't quite pleasing to read. To be frank, I don't think the site will ''ever'' return to the mid-00s pace of a weekly toon {{--}} unlike the article's assertion that the site "has still been on hiatus" {{--}} at some point this page stops being "hiatus coverage" and instead "describing the new normal".
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| - | ::Perhaps this page is maintained, while a main-space article becomes a truncated version that stops around 2015. Something like "2010s hiatus" may be a good compromise - {{p|l=http://hrwiki.org/w/index.php?title=HRWiki:Sandbox&oldid=809868 I've put together a rough version of this in the sandbox}}. --{{User:Bleu Ninja/sig}} 02:03, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
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| - | :::Another quick "for" argument - having an article that can be linked to from pages would be useful. [[April Fool 2014#Explanations|April Fool 2014]] and [[sbemail 206#Trivia|sbemail 206]] already link here, [[Weekly Fanstuff]] (et al) awkwardly refer to "late 2009" and "2014", [[Which Ween Costumes?#Explanations|Which Ween Costumes?]] could benefit from a link. The 2010s hiatus has clearly been referred to several times within the body of work. --{{User:Bleu Ninja/sig}} 02:31, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
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| - | ::::I like your article draft, but I'm not sure how much good splitting up the page would do. I imagine that would create a lot of redundancy, especially if the only major difference between the HRWiki and mainspace pages is the slightly narrower scope (including the removal of information already [[H*R.com updates 2015|documented elsewhere]], which doesn't really need to be preserved here in my opinion). Speaking of the narrower scope, that's another thing I'm unsure about {{--}} while the earlier update gaps are frequently exceeded nowadays, they were unusual for the time, and I think that makes them worth noting. And maybe this is just me, but I like how the intro sections provide a contrast with the rest of the article. Like, "remember when a month without updates was a big deal?". As for sbemail hiatuses, however, I agree that those don't quite fit here. All of them happened either when the site was updated regularly (in which case it's not the same type of hiatus this page otherwise documents), or during the overall hiatus (which is already documented, creating overlap between sections). I think any hiatus of an individual toon category should be documented on its own page {{--}} somehow I feel like information regarding the sbemail hiatus would be more relevant on the [[Strong Bad Email]] page than here. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 04:55, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
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| - | :::::You make good points. The post-2015 "H*R.com updates 20XX" articles really do a better job than the trickling paragraphs on this article, like you say splitting isn't a better approach than readjusting and renaming. {{p|l=http://hrwiki.org/w/index.php?title=HRWiki:Sandbox&oldid=809954 Updated the sandbox version}} with the minor hiatuses; I think the prose for that section is more confusing than helpful (in addition to "the longest hiatus!" record-keeping when differences are <2 wks) so I shifted to bullets (the major hiatus section works better as paragraphs, though). --{{User:Bleu Ninja/sig}} 09:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
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| - | ::::::{{p|l=http://hrwiki.org/w/index.php?title=HRWiki:Sandbox&oldid=809974 Yep, I think it's just about perfect now.}} {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 04:59, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
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| - | == 2010-2013 ==
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| - | I think it started after [[Which Ween Costumes?]] and lasted until 2014.
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