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I'd just like to modify a statement in my post up there. I said I'd probably be in the same place I am now, but I'd like to add to that what PianoMan said in his post. I was also assuming that everything else that could be the same would be the same. Of course those little differences he mentioned would have added up in reality, making all the speculation pointless. Also, the specific tenets of Catholicism are basically habits by now, ones that I've had to notice and break consciously, and I find more practically every day. These habits deeply effect my daily choices. So, really, I have to admit that if I was born into another religion with another set of values, who knows, I may have picked up another religion by now, maybe gone back to it, may have gone full out atheist, or maybe I'd be dead, who knows!

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Well, I'm a Christian born of two Atheists, so I figure I'd be about as likely to become Christian from any other starting point. Also wut PMG sed.

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Well, that depends... I mean if you were in a "meh, we don't really believe" atheist family, you'd be a lot more likely to become Christian than you would in a militantly anti-religion one (unless, of course, you were the rebellious type: "YOU KNOW WHAT?!? MOM AND DAD, I'M GOING TO BECOME CHRISTIAN AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!!!").

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I think my family swings in between the two. In polite company, they're all "Well, there's not sufficient proof *shrug*" while in private they've referrred to religious assemblies as "Mumbo Jumbo Huts".

In my case, it wasn't really about being rebellious. I just think that the role of "open-minded/close-minded" has largely been swapped in the past decade or so. Now, people who claim to be all open-minded and questioning of authority generally regard religion as mindless balderdash, in spite of evidence for it, while a majority of those whom they accuse are vice versa.

*Note: "Generally" and "majority" used so that no one can declare "lol hfov = raicst streotip, you are goeing to jeil for that"

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Um, I probably would have stayed with that one...

I'm not huge on religion. I believe in God and Jesus and all that, but I never go to Church. I've never been baptized or anything. I'm a Christian, but a loose one. If I was born a Muslim I'd probably be a Muslim. *shrug*

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For me it depends... If I were raised into a household where I had the same literary resources I have now, and if the relgion or philosphy was only lightly pushed, I'd probably have the same philosphy and the same beliefs I have now. But if the relgion or philosphy was strongly pushed and I did not have access to the literary rescources I have, I would probably believe in whatever religion or philosphy was pushed on me.

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The dragon never works...

"If you had come from another background, where would you have ended up?" Aside from Didymus's application of C.S.Lewis's (Aslan's) comment: "no one is ever told what would have happened", I'd say there is an implicit question concerning a deep primary truth; without affirmation of which, there can be no persuasion.

How can we come to agreement?

This is important for people 1) who want to know the Truth, 2) who want to teach the Truth. Cuz for #1 you couldn't know if you didn't get born knowing. And for #2 you couldn't teach anybody that wasn't born already knowing... In other words, if a common understanding isn't ever established for how it is possible to agree, then there won't ever be any agreement...Look over these presentations of physical (first three) and scriptural evidence:This list has several long videos of presentations given by people I respect: Don Patton and Tom Russel are among the speakers; they're googlable I think. The Titles you should consider watching, in my priority order are:

• Stones of Israel
• The Dead Sea Scrolls
• Integrity of the Bible
• Your Interpretation
• Scriptural Age of the Earth

Addressing "coming from different backgrounds" directly: My friend D is one of a set of identical twins. She and her sister were grown to be catholics -- one of their step father's was an ex-priest. Later in their lives, they were taught the truth -- from the bible -- and they converted OSTENSIBLY based on the evidence presented. D's sister converted but had not fastened on the evidence so much, and she later adopted the religion of the family she married into; she fell. Her sister is on antidepressants now; D is not. Conscience can be a terrible thing, when bucked against.

So YES, you can change from what you were born into. And I contend that, since there is only one Truth, you must change from anything other than that; and you must hold it once you've got it. But it's easier than all that really: no one is born into Christianity (in distinction to any supposed/false/pseudo subtype of it); that's not how God chose to do it; not what's revealed. All Christians convert from something else. And they do it by following evidence.

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But that people are products of their environment is still inescapable. We like to look at the past and say that we wouldn't do the same things other people did. For example, "Well, if I were born a white man in the southern United States in the late 1700s, *I* wouldn't own any slaves...", or maybe "Well, if I were born in Ancient Greece, *I* wouldn't be a pederast and subjugate women...", or "If I were born in Germany in the late 1800s, *I* wouldn't be a Nazi..." But it doesn't work like that. If you were born in those places in those time periods, you would be like everybody else, because there would be no reason for you not to. Now, I know that in many respects, I'm not like most people, but I'm still a product of my place and times. Enlightenment must come from nurture as well as nature.

- Kef

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