Talk:Strong Bad Email

I also made one here of the simpler version but with arrows for comparison. I enlarged the arrows just a touch. — It's dot com 22:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Bill, out of curiosity, how much different is this version (from what you can see in your browser):

Strong Bad Email #2

from It's dot com's directly above?

Here's a snapshot (at 100%). I still prefer the angle brackets, unless the arrows can be fixed up with a reasonable chance of looking good in various browsers at various resolutions. I'm using Firefox, 1280x1024, medium-ish text size, on both a laptop and a desktop, and the arrows look a bit clunky on both. However, I also realize I'm flirting with hypocrisy here, since the angle brackets look quite unsophisticated and I always advocate using the "real" version of a symbol (such as an em dash [—] instead of two hyphens [--]). Do we have escape sequences for solid triangles? Those might make for a good compromise. — Bill 16:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and consider whether we would want to use the same trick for Teen Girl Squad, Marzipan's Answering Machine, and any other reasonably sequential series of pages. We might want a separate set of templates for those others, since the page layout is slightly different from a Strong Bad email, but I'd think we'd want the nav boxes to look consistent. — Bill 16:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Could it be done like this:

Strong Bad Email #2

<< some kinda robot

homsar

butt IQ >>

How's that look? -AtionSong 17:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I like it! — _talk Bubsty _edits 17:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Ationsong, I like your version the best, but what I like would be a full horizontal screen version of that, with the title in the middle, and then the forward and back buttons on the left and right. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 21:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Bill, here's how it looks for me:

Another addition I'd like to get your opinion on is the following:

Strong Bad Email #2

watch

I've been meaing to fix the transparancy of that image, but other than that, what do you think? -- Tom 21:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Honestly? I didn't know what it was for at first. Initially I thought "watch" meant "add it to my watch list." I guess I'm fairly focused on what I thought the navigation should do, and this seems like an "add-on" that doesn't need to be there. This nav system is all about rapid movement from one email to an adjacent email; dropping out to watch one of them doesn't need to be part of the "quickness" factor (for that I can easily hit the End key and click the normal watch link). — Bill 14:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Easily fixed by the suggestion below:

Strong Bad Email #2

Better? -- Tom 17:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Note: Fixed transparancy. -- Tom 22:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

How about "watch email" or somesuch that indicates what you're about to watch? — It's dot com 02:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I think either "watch homsar" or "watch email" would work. -- Tom 03:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Even though people like my other idea, I had another one, and figured that there's no harm in posting it. It looks like this:

Strong Bad Emails

<< some kinda robot | homsar | butt IQ >>

This integrates the "email navigation" template with the "strong bad email" template found at the bottom of every page. It still needs a little formatting work, but I think this solves the problem of where to put it so that it does not get in the way of other elements on the page. What does everybody think? -AtionSong 15:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

A good idea, but the whole point of the nav buttons was to avoid scrolling to the main template. ⇔Thunderbird⇔ 22:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Science! Er, I mean, "Exactly!" — Bill 14:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

And once you get to the big nav template, it's really not that hard to locate your place in the list (since it's a different color and bold) and just click on the next or previous email. (I fixed the template above to illustrate this.) — It's dot com 01:35, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Science!, again. — Bill 14:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I am going to implement Tom's most recent design (the one that reads "watch homsar") so that we can see whether we're close or whether we need to go back to the drawing board. — It's dot com 18:24, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I switched them on homsar and butt IQ. How do they look? — It's dot com 18:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

It's just not clicking for me, for several reasons:

Too disparate; what does watching the toon have to do with previous/next navigation?
Too redundant; the watch/view links at the bottom of the page are only and End-button away, and offer more options. (The prev/next links are at the top to reduce scrolling, but this is a non-issue for a low-repetetivity action like watching a toon.)
Too inconsistent; it makes me feel like we would need a little "watch" box at the top of every page that represents a toon. (Why would there be a watch box for butt IQ but not for Experimental Film?)
Too imposing; the box is starting to take over the top of the page. Look how big it would get on different town:

Strong Bad Email #99

← stupid stuff

watch different town

flashback →

So, I advocate keeping this template slim, unimposing, and focused on its task.

— Bill 20:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe we should have a small watch button at the top of all toons. That's often the reason I go to the pages. — It's dot com 23:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Like Bill said, I too think the "watch" button is distracting where it is. But it is definitely a nice addition to have. How about this format which separates the two yet keeps the watch button handy? --Stux 04:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is a sample:

Strong Bad Email #3 (watch Strong Bad Email)

Please ignore the "Strong Bad Email" misnomer. I kept the {{PAGENAME}} tag for simplicity. --Stux 04:08, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a good attempt, but it still seems cluttery to me. And keep in mind that most pages (other than sb emails) have a different layout at the top of the page. Where would we put such a link on a regular toon or an answering machine page? If the benefit was significant, it would be worth working on the layout problem or accepting the clutter for the sake of functionality. But the benefit is quite minimal; if you're on this page to watch the toon, you can just press the End key and then click the "watch" link at the bottom of the page. Since most toons last at least two or three minutes, the extra time needed to hit End (or Page Down a few times) is negligible. — Bill 14:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Also keep in mind that if the PAGENAME template is used, email #100 will have to be hardcoded or will have to have its own special template. (That's one of the reasons I've not used that template in my examples). — Some Dumb Guy Who ... Comes Around, And ... 14:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Uh, please ignore those stupid-type words I wrote up there. I guess I was thinking of the unusual filenaming on the HR site itself; the wiki pages, of course, are no problem. So, let me take back those stupid-type words and just say "Science, again!". — Bill 15:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Science! Lol! I love that skit. I think it's great evidence that Homestar is really an Idiot Savant of sorts. Case in point: "Strong Bad what are you doing? You mean doing?" ... "well they're spelled the same!"... Anyway, I digress. My example was meant exclusively for use with Strong bad emails and not for the generic toon template. However, you do make a good point about it being too cluttery and thought of this:

Strong Bad Email #3 (watch)

or this:

Strong Bad Email #3 [watch]

It's much more concise. Whaddya think!? --Stux 16:36, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh cwap — I just realized that my original comment about making an exception for email #100 was right, and my subsequent retraction was actually the stupid-type words. Anyway ... I still need an answer to the question, "so where do you put that link on every toon that isn't a Strong Bad email?". — Bill 15:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry about the email 100 exception: that's what exceptions are for: we can either subst: the template and hard code the necessary elements, or just substitute the number for "ahundred" since templates don't really care if you're putting in numbers or text. As for toons that are aren't SBEmails, please refer to my comment below (~~link to come~~) regarding the need for two separate templates: one for emails and one for the rest. If you like either of the current versions above (With parens or brackets) we should start applying them soon (after some sort of consensus of course), since having different and inconsistent test versions just sitting pretty. --Stux 16:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the template above assumes dot com's format which is more concise as it requires less parameters. --Stux 16:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

further discussion

Well ... I still don't see a need for the redundant "watch" link, still don't care for the extra clutter, and still want to know what this will look like on a non-email toon before I can buy into it for the emails. I agree we need to pick a format and move ahead because right now we have at least three different navs on the emails (counting "no nav" as one of the three), so let's pick one without the watch link (for now) and make all the emails consistent. Then we can easily add the watch link to the template, if everyone likes it, after we figure out where it goes on a non-email toon. I can live with the version with the arrows, if that's the consensus. — Bill 15:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Could we do it like

or just

-AtionSong 23:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Why? We have to feed the name of each email to the template anyway (so it can generate the link), so why not display it for the user as well? I think it's helpful. — Bill 15:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ever since this discussion began, I have paid attention to when I would use this template, and I just wanted to point out that several times recently I have wished for a "watch" button at the top and have been frustrated to have to scroll all the way to the bottom for it. — It's dot com 15:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that's true ... but I'm also sure the same could be said about other kinds of things we could add to the top of the page. Any one feature, considered in isolation, would be handy. The question I have is, what features are most useful overall when we consider the opportunity cost of adding them, and what functionality is really gained for that price (for instance, when you say "scroll all the way to the bottom", I hear "press the End key", so (to me, anyway) it seems like the cost outweighs the benefit). For example, I am keeping my own local archive of the Flash files, so I would find it very handy to have the "view the flash file" link at the top of each page. However, considered relative to all the other things that could go at the top, and keeping in mind the clutter burden, I don't think that would be an improvement for the average wiki visitor. And, if we are going to add watch links to the top of every toon article, where do they go and what do they look like? I'm not adamantly opposed to them, but I am still waiting for somebody to answer these questions! — Bill 16:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Edit conflict Well, given that I really don't want to be writing this paper I kind of volunteered to write... I went ahead and picked one template {{sbenav}} and applied it to the first 12 emails. I also did two other things: i applied that same template to the first email so it would wrap around. I also moved any disambugation templates below the nav template so that navigation would be "seamless". At least going forward. I removed the big watch link (i really didn't like it there) but did not add the smaller watch link I proposed above simply because it can be changed later (of course all pages that have the template will need to be refreshed). I agree with Dot com, I think having a link to watch the toon would be most helpful for those of us who like a little convenience. :)--Stux 16:05, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not adamantly opposed to them, but I am still waiting for somebody to answer these questions!

Like I mentioned before, I am focusing on one thing at a time. First let's take care of the strong bad emails for they have one format, and then worry about the other toons as they have another format (in this case there's no Strong Bad Email #XXX to piggyback links to watch toons. If we choose to have watch links by the SBEmails i'm sure that we can find a way to link them to regular toons. I see your point about us potentially including too much clutter, and yes we'll need to draw the line and I think it can be drawn right next to the watch button. I was thinking even that we could use a techinque I've seen been used in signatures:

Strong Bad Email #1 (w)

← death metal

homsar →

It's smaller and a little less intrusive. --Stux 16:16, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, since my screen here is 800x600, and the sbemail template is so large, I have to hit "end" and then "page up" 1 or 2 times to reach it. so that's a whopping 2 or 3 extra keystrokes to get to it! =) --Stux 16:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

And couldn't you press End to get to the big navigation template, too? Now that I think about it, why would you need to advance through the sbemails so quickly that a link would be necessary at the top of the page? If someone is searching for something, it would seem to me that there are more efficient ways of doing that. On the other hand, I think a "watch" button would be at least as useful or more useful than navigation buttons. As for where they would go, we have a sample that combines the two ideas, and a similar template could be made for toons that would need a "watch" button only. — It's dot com 16:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought the nav template was proposed for navigation convenience? To browse through the emails one by one and just kinda look at stuff? I thought the purpose of this template was settled in dicussions above? I do agree though that the watch button is as useful if not more than the nav template. Q: Dot com, what did you mean by "we have a sample that combines the two ideas?" Speaking of discusion, I added a tag further down for ease in commenting. --Stux 16:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was settled, too. Anyway, if we're okay with the level of terseness used in sigs, here's another (minimalist) idea that combines the nav and the watch link:

Strong Bad Email #1 ← →

You'll notice I had to cheat to make the text portion of the HR link disappear, and the cheat is apparent when you mouse over it. I assume that could be fixed. — Bill 17:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Strong Bad Email #2

(Edit conflict) Stux: A template like the one above. Note that I switched the position of the "watch" and "prev" buttons. Does that help it any? The reason I questioned putting it at the top is that if you're going to be looking at the toon article in any depth, then you're going to be scrolling down away from the navigation template, and so it wouldn't be on screen when you needed it, and therefore you'd have to scroll to it no matter where it was, unless you were advancing through several sbemails in a row, which just didn't seem as likely to me. (And I know that that was a proposed use for the template, because way up there is discussion of relative X and Y values between different pages.) — It's dot com 17:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of useful information at the very top: a summary synopsis, the cast of characters, a list places, and usually a screenshot of a defining moment. It may not seem likely to you that somebody would want to quickly click through the emails, but it seems likely to me because I do it. One of the central ideas underlying the web is that not everyone wants the same thing, or wants to do it in the same way, so we provide different tools for differnt users. Some want to browse. Some want to search. Some want to follow a trail of hyperlinks. Some want to use a master menu as a base of operations. And some — or at least this one — want to click through sequentially. If I'm the only one who does, then by all means let's scrap the idea and go back to a cleaner page layout. Or add your extra watch links. I'm going to take a rest from the discussion now; it's already become too much work for the benefit and I don't have the energy to fight charges of uselessness when I thought the value of the navigation had already been established. I recommend removing the navigation from all the live pages and transplanting this discussion to someplace more central (since it has grown larger than just sbemails). If anyone else still thinks the previous/next navigation has value, then you can hash out the details and put it back in. But if it turns out I'm the only one, then I would have to concede that the usefulness is too narrow to make it part of the site. — Bill 17:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to have the whole idea scrapped. I merely was noticing that the recent examples were missing the "watch" link and was trying to get that put back in, reasoning that such a link was at least as important as the nav links. Obviously we two put different weight on the respective links. But I have no problem with having both if we're gonna have any. — It's dot com 17:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, all of the versions I posed had a watch button to them. I just didn't include them in the {{sbenav}} template due to the discussion at the time. The above revision is definitely better. I probably should include a list of what I consider to be current "candidates" (starting with the current version):

</tr>

0

Strong Bad Email #2

1

Strong Bad Email #2

2

Strong Bad Email #3 (watch Strong Bad Email)

3

Strong Bad Email #3 (watch)

4

Strong Bad Email #3 [watch]

5

Strong Bad Email #1 (w)

← death metal

homsar →

6

Strong Bad Email #1 ← →

7

Strong Bad Email #2

--Stux 21:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

new thought

If I could wish any wish this holiday season, first would be the crap about the kids*, but second would be this: The ability to define an article as part of a named series. All such articles would be numbered to define the sequence within the series, and when displayed, would automatically get "previous" and "next" links in the toolbox, or above or to the right of the title, or someplace like that. Being a software developer, maybe I should look into what it would take to write a wiki extension that does something along these lines. — Bill 18:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The following website is outside of www.hrwiki.org and contains crude or vulgar language and/or content. Personal discretion is advised.

* Adapted from "A Holiday Wish" [2] by Steve Martin on Saturday Night Live.

I think that sketch is hilarious and wish I could see it again. — It's dot com 18:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

genericity of the navigation

Some more examples to chew upon:

Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 2.0

← Version 1.0

Version 3.0 →

The King of Town unsuccessfully tries to deliver an invitation, Pom Pom talks crazy talk, and Detective Everybody reports that Homestar Runner is dead.

Good for screening calls

Cast (in order of appearance): Marzipan, Strong Bad, The King of Town, Pom Pom, Homestar Runner

. . .

Teen Girl Squad Issue 8

← Issue 7

Issue 9 →

The girls join the Battle of the Bands.

Kissy Boots in action.

Cast (in order of appearance): Cheerleader, So and So, What's Her Face, The Ugly One, Intercom, Tompkins, Mrs. So-and-so-erson, Floor Tom, Pom Pom, Fatty, Trolls, A Shark, Strong Bad (Easter egg)

. . .
There may be some other series that could benefit from this, too; these just seemed like the most obvious. — Bill 15:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I've set up new templates that work as follows:

{{ prevnext | prev-actual-name | prev-show-as | next-actual-name | next-show-as }}

Both are designed to work right before a line or paragraph of text, and will place the navigation box flush right with the text flowing around it.

examples

← Version 1.0

Version 3.0 →

The King of Town unsuccessfully tries to deliver an invitation, Pom Pom talks crazy talk, and Detective Everybody reports that Homestar Runner is dead.

Uses {{prevnext|Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 1.0|Version 1.0|Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 3.0|Version 3.0}}

← Issue 7

Issue 9 →

The girls join the Battle of the Bands.

Uses {{prevnext|Teen Girl Squad Issue 7|Issue 7|Teen Girl Squad Issue 9|Issue 9}}