Editing HRWiki talk:Logo redesign 2006

Please see the whole previous discussion here: '''[[/Archive|Archive]]'''.

===Where we are now===
{| border=1 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2 style="border-collapse:collapse; text-align:center" width="100%"
|- bgcolor=#eeeeee
! Current !! Current Updated B !! Current Updated C !! Current Updated A
|-
| [[Image:wiki.png|150px]]
| [[Image:Logo_Redesign_Current_Updated_b.gif|150px]]
| [[Image:Logo_Redesign_Current_Updated_c.gif|150px]]
| [[Image:Logo_Redesign_Current_Updated.gif|150px]]
|-
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=Main_Page&useskin=monobook main page}}
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/temporary_files/Main_Page2.html main page}}
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/temporary_files/Main_Page5.html main page}}
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/temporary_files/Main_Page1.html main page}}
|-
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/index.php?title=japanese_cartoon&useskin=monobook sample article}}
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/temporary_files/japanese_cartoonB.html sample article}}
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/temporary_files/japanese_cartoonC.html sample article}}
| {{p|l=http://www.hrwiki.org/temporary_files/japanese_cartoonA.html sample article}}
|}

Based on the discussion in the archive, it seems clear that there is enough dissatisfaction with the World concept (both the full world and blended versions) from enough users to exclude it from the running. '''Just about everybody would be satisfied with one of the Current Updateds, so we need to focus on narrowing our choice to one of those.'''

I would be satisfied with any of the updated versions, although I'm still leaning toward '''version B''', and would like to hear if anyone has a specific reason to choose one of them before I make up my mind (for example, maybe one looks more professional). &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 05:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

:I like '''Current Updated C''' best. It looks good and seems to be a good combination of features that most people like.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 04:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

::I agree with Loafing, '''Current Updated C''' seems to have the characteristics most users want. - {{User:Flamer8965/sig}} 06:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''Current Updated B''' is my favorite; as Thunderbird once said, Homestar just looks more intelligent with his mouth closed.  And the guy needs all the help he can get ;) I could live with numba '''C''' though. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 07:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

::::'''Currented Updated B''' - the C version's kamikaze lines do not look very straight with his mouth open.  The other one covers it up better.--{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 07:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::'''Current Updated C'''. Homestar doesn't need to look "intelligent"... He's Homestar! The mouth open-nes give him a smiling look that is welcome and greeting to new people visitng the site. It's optimistic and I like it. {{User:E.L. Cool/sig}} 09:58, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::I lean '''C''', although I could live with '''B''', too. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 15:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I'm perfectly happy with any of them I think at this point, but I'd go '''B''','''A''','''C''' if I had to choose, but much like in [[Pumpkin Carve-nival]] there is no clear winner. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 16:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::'''Current Updated C''', I absolutely love it.  But, I still kinda like the blur.  WAIT, IS THE LOGO GOING TO CHANGE ON THE WIKI FORUMS TOO?--[[User:Theyellowdart|Theyellowdart]] 16:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::No, the logo on the forum is different, and there would have to be discussion at the forum among the forum users if they wanted to change it. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 17:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I has an idea. Many are saying, "I like B (or C), but I wouldn't mind C (or B)." And it's pretty evenly split between the two as far as first choices go. So why don't we try both for a week? I can set it up so that the first thirty minutes of the hour, we see version B. Then for the final thirty minutes of the hour, we see version C. After a week, if there are strong feelings for keeping one or the other, then we can choose one of them. Or, if we want, we can keep them alternating. (Someone further up the page mentioned rotating several differnt logos, and the idea was nixed, but I think my idea is different from that. These two logos are so close to each other in design that it wouldn't be too jarring for Homestar to be serious part of the time and smiling later. And the extremely slow rate at which they alternate would prevent it from being annoying.) &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 17:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:That sounds fine &mdash; as it stands, I think we're going to have to have a large sample size of users to get consensus here one way or another, which could take a while. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 18:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::Part of the random discussion involved the statement from someone that they did not think it was possible.  Using php technology it would not be hard at all to randomly select one or the other.  In my own [http://www.odua.org website], look at the top header.  Two random images are pulled each time a page is loaded.  Note the source code<!-- <img src="../images/topheader/left/rotate.php" alt="guess who?"/> --> so to see how.  Other [http://alistapart.com/articles/randomizer/ instructions] are also available. {{User:Invisible_Robot_Fish/sig}} 18:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Er, nobody ever said it wasn't possible. In fact, the first thing I said was, "That's certainly possible." I already have the code ready to do this. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 18:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::::That... is a great idea.  I think we should just rotate B & C back and forth.  It would probably take people awhile to figure out how it works.  Like, when will his mouth be open, when will it not.  I love that idea.  I say we go with that. (I guess I had one more thing to add to this discussion afterall even though I thought it was pretty much over.)--{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 19:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I'm with '''Current Updated C''', because now that I think about it (and see them side by side), I don't really care for the blurred background. The open mouth and blinking eyes are my favorite elements. &mdash; {{User:SamFisher1022/sig}} 15:32, 1 December 2006
::::::I was the one who was so strongly opposed to rotating the logo. However, alternating between B and C is something I could live with. Many people might not even notice that it changes. On a side note, B was originally proposed by Bleedy back in the day, but was somehow forgotten when we moved the discussion from the Basement ([http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/bleed0range/hrwikinew_outlined.png] and [http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b89/bleed0range/wikihrlogo_new.png]). I do have to say that I like Homestar's glow on these two much better. I also like that these two have no glow around the text (you know, just some details for your consideration).{{User:Loafing/sig}} 20:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Rotating between the two would be an egg in of itself.  I agree, some user might not ever notice. {{User:Invisible_Robot_Fish/sig}} 21:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Just to clarify, I am not today suggesting that we ''permanently'' have an alternating logo. All I'm saying is that I believe the time has come to implement one of the designs above. Since quite a few people would be okay with either B or C and only slightly favor one over the other (and there's no overwhelming consensus for either one), my idea is that we should just choose both for a short time and see how it goes. Like, not talk about it for a week, and then once the week is up, find out what people think then. If, at that time, everyone says, "I've had time to really see it and think about it, and I think B (or C) is way better than C (or B), and we should just choose one," then we would pick one and go with it. On the other hand, if nearly everyone says, "Wow, the alternating aspect of the logo is super-cool; they should continue alternating," then of course we could do that too. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 21:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::::::I think a week away with the two finalists alternating is a great idea.  They're both representitive of the Wiki, and now its mostly just a matter of what reactions are invoked by the new options with the general public.  I second tabling this discussion for the durration of one week, to alow for live testing of the two potential new logos. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 23:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)  
I vote '''Current C''', though I like '''B''' too. Really this is just a '''not A''' vote (for reasons of blur). &mdash;[[User:AbdiViklas|AbdiViklas]] 21:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:I think that the alternating idea for one week is good, but I'd really just like to see version C. Of course, permanant alternating would be cool, but it would be confusing to new users. Perhaps, if we did that, we could put the answer in the FAQ. Do what you must do, Dot Com; it looks like people could live with any of the options at this point. -[[User:Brightstar Shiner|<span style="color: #800080;">''Brightstar Shiner''</span>]] 22:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
::I like B and C...they're both really great (especially C), and I like the idea of keeping them each up for a week or so.  But somebody should probably PNGcrush them. (it will be the most downloaded image on the site) - {{User:The Joe/sig}} 22:50, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
:I think '''C''' just owns the rest. --[[User:Theyellowdart|Theyellowdart]] 00:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:I got my little sister (she's five) to decide on which one she likes the best and she chose '''A'''.  How cute, huh? --[[User:Theyellowdart|Theyellowdart]] 00:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:To me '''Current C''' has this in the bag. There are like 7 votes to '''C''' and about 4 votes to      '''B'''- {{User:Flamer8965/sig}} 09:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
''If I ruled the wiki''... Current C, ditch the blink. Current B is a close second (no blink) {{User:Bryanc/sig}}.

I like C. He just looks happier. I like A too, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 10:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

:What's wrong with a blink every 15 or so seconds? --[[User:Theyellowdart|Theyellowdart]] 17:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
::There is nothing ''wrong'' with it per se, but to me it comes off as an ameteurish just-because-we-can use of technology.  And it violates good design.  If we were designing an embedded ad, then yes we would want to use such a subtle device, but for a logo &mdash; every 15 seconds the logo will draw the attention of the viewers eye up to the logo in the corner &mdash; why?  It does not serve the function needed by a logo. {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 18:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
: Whatev :P --[[User:Theyellowdart|Theyellowdart]] 18:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, I would have to say C, because he looks fat in all of the other logos. Even though it would be cool if, the logo alternated between b and c, like flash. It would for some amount of seconds be one, and then it would flash to another.--{{User:H*bad/sig}} 19:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:I vote '''Not A''', because the blur is a bit distracting and it really looks bad. Personnally I'd prefer C, but I like the idea of rotating. --{{User:Super Martyo Brother/sig}} 19:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess C wins, seeing as it's up there right now. {{User:Salty/sig}} 20:34, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
:No, that's only partially correct. Read the above discussion. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 20:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
::I slowed the alternating to once every 60 minutes. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

==After The Test==
'''Current Updated B and C''' have now been implemented, and we took a break from discussion for a week. During that time, we were to think about which logo we like better (if you want to see how the other one looks, it will switch within the hour), and also to consider whether we might want the two logos to alternate permanently. '''If you have a strong opinion, it would be helpful for you to (briefly) state ''why'' you feel that way.'''

*I'm for '''[[:Image:Logo Redesign  Current Updated c.gif|Current Updated C]]''' --{{User:Nerd42/sig}} 18:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Oh wait, on second tought, make 'em alternate permanently. Hey why not. --{{User:Nerd42/sig}} 18:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
*I am staring at C now in the corner of the wiki, and I like it the best.  It makes me happy.  Geez, I wonder if Homestar will ever get tired of smiling that big... anyway, I vote '''C''' all the way, baby!! --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}} 07:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC) <!--P.S. Someone take off the Table'D thing.  I don't want to get in trouble for taking it off w/out permission.-->
*:I really like the blink.  I like the smile.  But what we could do is this... show Homestar on the logo as he is on B, and after about 15 seconds have him animate into a smile.  That'd be tight. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*::Not to be rude but, come on C has twice as many votes as B it's clearly the winner. - {{User:Flamer8965/sig}} 21:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::Um, it's been what, fourteen hours? Give it time. We barely have 10 votes. &mdash; {{User:Lapper/sig}} 21:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::Flamer, are you talking to me?  Uh, bub, I like C better, I was just suggesting that we could use an animated logo.  [[Some Type of Online Auction|JEEZ!!!]] --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*:::'''Reminder:''' This is not a vote per se. It's a discussion to reach consensus. We are trying to figure out what we can ''all'' live with (or as close as possible), not just a simple majority. Also, the absolute most we would do in the way of animation is the blink. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 21:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::Truthfully I like B and C.  I say we take blinking off, because obviously it is extremely annoying to some, and I'd be okay with alternating.  But if I voted on just one, I'd pick C.  There that sums me up.  I'm out. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*I concur! Best place! Ding! Or maybe there's only so far you can stretch a quote. What I mean to say is, I still like '''C''' a lot better than B. {{User:Shwoo/sig}} 09:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*I'm for '''B''' or alternating permanently. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 13:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*alternating works for me, but I actually did find the blink distracting occassionally but I can certainly live with it. {{User:Invisible_Robot_Fish/sig}} 14:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*Still like '''B''' better, but alternating works as well.  I concur with IRF, the blink did distract/"get to" me from time to time. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld's Teh C]] 14:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*I am pretty much still '''split evenly''' between the two, and '''I like the blink''' (I don't find it distracting). &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 17:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*1-2-3 '''C'''-'''C'''-'''C''' - {{User:Flamer8965/sig}} 18:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*I say '''alternating'''. &mdash; {{User:Lapper/sig}} 21:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*I vote '''B'''. {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 21:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*I don't really like the idea of alternating. I really think it should only be one logo. As for which one: '''C''' is my first choice, but B is great, too. Oh, and I do prefer no blink. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 21:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*:What don't you like about the blink? It's so slow that I find that I don't notice it unless I'm staring right at the logo, and most of the time the window is scrolled such that the logo isn't even visible. How would you feel if the blink were slowed greatly, like once every 25 or 30 seconds? &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*::For me the blink just breaks my focus on things I may be focused on while working and that is just flustrating. I'm not big on alternating or blinking, but would much rather see it alternate (even though that makes it feel less like a logo to me) than have it blink. The blink just causes me to lose focus on the work I'm doing and look at the logo.  That's something that is good in an advertisement, but seems to miss the point of a logo. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 00:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC) 
*:::I concur - even as slow as it is, I find the blink distracting.  I'm one of those people that tends to have his attention drawn to things like that very easily, and the blink makes me go "What was that?" when I'm reading or editing.  It has already blown my concentration several times. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 22:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
*I still really like '''C'''. No blink, no alternating. Just your daily dose of Vitamin C...or something. -[[User:Brightstar Shiner|<span style="color: #800080;">''Brightstar Shiner''</span>]] 22:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*:A lot of people are supporting alternating. What don't you like about it? &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*::In regards to Dot Com and everyone else, I supported the alternating before I saw it, but now I feel that I really just like C. It's more inviting, and we don't have to be ''too'' professional, as we aren't a business or anything. However, if it turns out to be permanent alternating, I'll be okay with it. -[[User:Brightstar Shiner|<span style="color: #800080;">''Brightstar Shiner''</span>]] 13:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::How is it distracting?  Tell me.  It's not like it's gonna kill you.  The blink is awesome.  Alternating is a BAD idea.  --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}} P.S. [[video games#Transcript|You can't control me!!]]
*::::I suspect it's because the top left corner of a screen is the area that is proven to be where the eye is most often drawn, and thus something that changes in that corner will draw attention away from other parts of the page. This would explain why I only really noticed that it when I was focused on what I was working on and not so much if I was just reading or scanning something.  - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::But still, it's not ''that bad''. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*::::::WELL... It can be really distracting if you know about it and want to see it. Then, you sit there, wasting your time on a stupid image. Of course, there are ways to stop the blinking/alternating for an individual user. {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 20:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::::But c'mon.  Nobody's gonna stare at an image for a minute and wait for it to do something, or do a [[The Homestar Runner|dance]]. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*I am all for alternating. But make it every 30 minutes.--{{User:H*bad/sig}} 22:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Alternating every 30 minutes was too frequent, which is why I slowed it to every 60 minutes. If we adopted alternating as our permanent configuration, I might even suggest it be slowed to switching every 2 hours. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*::Alternating every 30 seconds without refreshing the page would be awesome. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*:::That would be extrememly distracting. That option is not on the table. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::Yeah, that would be distracting, but I would go for two hours. That would be, in my opinion, the best option. Maybe 3 hours.--{{User:H*bad/sig}} 23:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::Distracting?!? Why does that matter?  I think rotating it every 3 hours would be pathetic (not to be rude or anything).  I'd say 5 minutes tops. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*::::::Having the logo do a jiggy-ma-jam while you're browsing ''is'' certainly the matter. We need long rotation periods. Pathetic isn't really the word to use either; waiting a couple of hours to refresh the logo doesn't make us look sad or weak. &mdash;[[User:BazookaJoe|BazookaJoe]] 06:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*Alternating and blinking works fine for me. But if alternating was to be removed, I'd go with C. Looks more friendly and inviting. - {{User:Joshua/sig}} 01:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*I gotta go with C. The smiling is better, happier, and more inviting. I also like the blinking, and would not like it to alternate between B and C. {{User:Salty/sig}} 06:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*I have largely the same opinions as Joshua. If I were to pick one, I would go with C. Having it alternate doesn't bother me, because that's going to make the most people happy. Blinking is fun and is not a ridiculous distraction, but maybe we should compromise and make the intervals longer. &mdash;[[User:BazookaJoe|BazookaJoe]] 06:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*I do find the blinking/alternating VERY distracting, and others would find it even MORE distracting. I mean, I changed MY logo in my monobook 'cause it irks me. Oh, and um uh... B. It looks serious, but fun (I mean, what's more fun the Homestar?) {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 06:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*I think that C is a great logo, and I'd be fine with the alternating...However, once or twice when I was patrolling RC, I did get distracted by the blink and I think that it's pretty irritating. I kept looking up at the corner, and my brother, looking over my shoulder remarked "Did Homestar just blink???" and proceeded to stare at the logo for three minutes. It seems a little ironic to me that the first email the founder of this wiki ever saw ([[website]]) made fun of annoying animated gifs, and now we're adopting one as our logo... It's less severe than the ones in the email of course. - {{User:The Joe/sig}} 20:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Blinking's not that much of a pain though, once you know it's there. If everybody in the world stared at the logo for three minutes upon their first experience just to watch Homestar blink, I wouldn't have a problem with it, because once people know it's there, most of them won't get involuntarily hung up on it ever again. &mdash;[[User:BazookaJoe|BazookaJoe]] 20:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*::Y'all are so [[Teen Girl Squad Issue 4#Transcript|wack.]]  Staring at a logo for 3 minutes+.  I think the blinking is a cool novelty to the logo.  But I still think '''C''' is the best, not alternating, and I don't care if he blinks or not.  I just love the logo. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}} P.S. if anybody wants to be on my "Cool People" list on my user page, just tell me.  Give me a reason why, and I'll add you.
*:::Ummm...about that one comment about people staring at it... um... lemme quote it "But c'mon.  Nobody's gonna stare at an image for a minute and wait for it to do something, or do a [[The Homestar Runner|dance]]."...Um...why do you think I changed the logo for me? <!--For those of you wondering, that means YES I did stare at it for minutes on end to see it blink.--> {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 20:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::I didn't know you can change the logo for yourself?  If that's the case, why are we voting on which one is better when we could just customize it to our own personal likes?! --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}} Are you a cool person?  Tell me...
*:::::Well, it's not common knowledge and we're trying to select the best one for the public to enjoy. - {{User:The Joe/sig}} 21:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::::Okay.  But I have a suggestion: should we just vote on the best logo on a voting sheet like the ones on STUFF? --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*:::::::As Dot Com said earlier, we're trying to get a consensus which will work for everyone, not just a majority, as this is an important part of the wiki that isn't changed often. - {{User:The Joe/sig}} 21:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::::::Well, for those of you who can't stand to be away from the blinking/altering, and for those of you who don't want it at all, couldn't it just be a preference? {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 21:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::::::Joe's right, we need to focus this discussion not only on what we like, but more importantly what the first time, or occasional user will see in the logo.  The perception from their standpoint is the most important issue here at this point probably. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 22:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::::::::I don't see how a casual user would have any stronger a reaction to the logo than a regular user. Also, I've been looking at the logo for years now, and I still don't identify it with the H*R intro. (The intro certainly wasn't the first thing I ever saw. I bet most people don't even see it now that you have the choice to skip it.) &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 03:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::::::::C stills looks the best.  Why don't we have a STUFF-like vote just to see who (in this discussion) likes which one better?  {{User:Theyellowdart/sig}} P.S. LONG LIVE THE BLINK!!
*::::::::::::As Dot Com has said a few times, this is not about majority rule, this is about finding what EVERYONE (or as close to it as possible) can live with and feels is fitting (or as close to it as possible).  I think that we're comming fairly close to a consensus, at least from my view point, but thats why I'm trying to see what are still the major objections that people have. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 03:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::Once again I say Upgraded C. Oh and Yellow Dart above I didn't mean anything against you or anyone else here I was just saying C looked like a clear-cut winner, but now I know it's not about majority. - {{User:Flamer8965/sig-holiday}} 05:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::::::::::::TheYellowDart, Flamer8965: You have already made your preference known, and we haven't forgotten what it is. You do not need to repost on this page just to state it again. If it turns out that there is overwhelming support for C, and we can't get a consensus to alternate, then at some point we will probably say to the B supporters, "We're going with the other one; can you live with it?" But I don't think we're quite to that point yet. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 20:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::::Well, I don't mean to be a nuisance, but can we just have a vote just TO SEE which one people like better?  Not to vote for a final decision, but just to for.......fun... --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}} 
*My opinion?  I am fine with both B and C, and I support the idea of alternating the logo every 2 or even 3 hours.  If we do away with the alternation, I would prefer C over B but would be fine with either.  In any case, I would like to see the blinking removed - it's turned out to be far more distracting (and somewhat irritating) to me than I thought it would be originally.  (Just as an FYI: I generally find animated images of any sort, no matter what they are, distracting and irritating if the main content I'm looking at is not an animation or video clip.) {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 22:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Yeah, I agree with the fact that blinking is more distracting than alternating. If we were to keep one... I'd say alternating between B and C. Of course, I'd still like just nonblinking/alterating B. {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 22:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

===Getting Away from Blinking/Alternating===
I'm interested to hear from anyone in the pro-B & anti-C camps as to what it is that makes them passionate about the difference between those two (excluding blinking/alternating issues).  I know I prefer B to C, but my looking at my personal reasons for that preference, it's not a huge deal to me.  I just find that it seems more in-line with our current idenity, as well as seems to match the combination of "serious" work we do here with the "fun" of the subject matter.  So I would like to see us choose B, but I don't have any arguments that make me "against" C except for that "It's not B." and that's not a very strong reason.  So I'm just want to see if there are other things we may not have thought of when it comes to the differences between B and C in other's eyes. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 22:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I'm in favor of B over C, and I think my reasons are the following: First, B is more connected to [[Intro]].  When Homestar is singing, "Everybody", he never opens his mouth to the position seen in C (if you look closely, the mouths are different).  So, in a sense, B is more true to the first animation one sees when accessing Homestarrunner.com. I may be splitting hairs here, but I never sense the surprised, gleeful feeling from Homestar's expression in C when I watch the Intro.  Second, something about the more serious, watchful Homestar just seems more iconic than the grinning/surprised Homestar to me.

:Lastly, I have to admit I've got the [[HRWiki:Favicon|favicon]] in the back of my mind, and I imagine the whole package fitting together better with the more serious Homestar in both the logo and the favicon.  My trials so far have suggested that that a B-style favicon works better than a C-style favicon, and it makes the most sense to have the two logos match as much as possible. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::B for me. {{User:Bluebry/sig}} 22:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I know I should have probably mentioned this earlier.  But I don't like the lighting behind Homestar and the word "Wiki" on either B or C.  The reason why is, it's not prominent enough.  When I look at it, it looks like it's bumpy or uneven... like parts of it jut out more than others.  When you look at the original logo, you can tell that it's a backlighting but on B and C it just doesn't look very prominent.  It's too "light," IMO.  Maybe you guys don't think that's a big deal, but if you weigh in what a first time visitor would think... if I think that it's likely others will too.  Anyway, I like B better.  I think it should alternate though, I see no problem with that.  So what if sometimes they see Homestar with his mouth open and sometimes without?  It is basically the same logo and this discussion is becoming laughable.  The only difference now is him smiling or not smiling really and you guys still write paragraph after paragraph over this mi-nute (mynewt, minute?) detail which doesn't mean much of anything.  I would focus more on making that lighting behind Homestar look nicer, because honestly I think it's tacky looking on the logo designs.  And that's after staring at them for awhile.--{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 00:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Isn't this how it all originally started out??  '''C''' all the way.  '''B''' looks like he's staring at you, not welcoming you.  ''Staring''. --{{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
::::I'm not trying to start all over, my question is directed at people who prefer B.  I'm interested to know exactly what makes the other people who like B, like it.  This is especially true of those who have a very strong opinion for B or against C.  If we're trying to work towards consesnsus, then we need to look at this piece by piece, and right now I think the first piece is: '''"What strong oposition do we have towards the basic B or C designs?"'''  I chose to focus on those who strongly favor B over C because that is the camp I have been in for most of this conversation, and it seems simpler to pick this apart a bit at a time right now. For unless we can find consensus for '''BOTH''' B and C, the option of alternating is moot, and unless we can find consensus on one, the other, or both of the options, then the whole blinking conversation is moot as well. We need to find where we do have consensus before we start discussing things that create division instead of unity (consensus). - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 01:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I'm interested in knowing about what time we're going to wrap this up. I hope this week will be the final one. In regards to Ilko, I've been in the C camp for most of this discussion and I can see why people like B better. It's professional, looks like the intro, and looks a lot like our (now not really) Current logo. However, I think that the logo does not have to look like the Intro, as that wasn't our intention in the first place. My strongest opposition to B is that it's just not ''light'' enough. It also is rather out of character for Homestar to be serious. He usually has that smile on his face and I think we should have it that way. -[[User:Brightstar Shiner|<span style="color: #800080;">''Brightstar Shiner''</span>]] 02:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

===Summary?===
After rereading the last 2 sections of comments thus far this is what I see:
There are people who have objections about both B and C, but at this time there isn't much passionate objection to either, most of it seems based on preference for serious or gleeful homestar over the other option.  Alternating has a few objectors, some of which make a good point about having "one logo" but at the same time the logo's are very similar in many ways, and I could argue both are part of our brand here at the Wiki just based on discussions and suggestions throughout this whole process.  I would personally say that I see the options right now as C or Alternating (although I'd love for someone to make an argument for B to remain).  As far as the Blink, I feel that there is a lot of passion on both sides of that issue, and it may need to be tabled until the discussion on which logo has found consensus. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 04:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
:You summed it up well. <s>Since most people want C or alternating, I would say that the logo most people would be happy with is Current Updated Alternating. It includes C, but doesn't rule out B either. If we choose alternating, issues such as the lighting, blinking, and time between rotation will need to be dealt with, but that shouldn't take too long. All in favor of alternating, say "I", if you please.</s> Never mind. After reading the comments below, I say a static logo is best. Sorry I keep changing my opinion. -[[User:Brightstar Shiner|<span style="color: #800080;">''Brightstar Shiner''</span>]] 00:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
::I had assumed that we had mostly decided on a logo, but if we must have another vote between alternating or C, I must say that I would vote for '''C'''. The alternating could just be a little confusing to some, not to mention I'm quite sure that a few obsessive-compulsive bloggers will be quite frustrated over which logo they should put on their page... for some reason. (Not a very strong argument, but...it could happen). {{User:Bubsty/sig}} 00:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
:::If this still counts, I like '''C''' the best.  [[User:Parp11|Parp 11]]

== Towards Consensus ==

We took a week off to ponder B vs C, and ended up taking a step backwards.  It's been another week. Permanent-alternating is now on the table.  To reach a consensus, we need to agree on one simple yes or no question at a time.  At this point, we need to first agree on "alternating or no?".  When we agree on the answer to that question, we will know what the next question to ask is.  Refer to or add to the arguments above and only state your response to the question at hand in this section. {{User:Bryanc/sig}} 08:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

''This is not a vote. It is a measure of our consesus so far.  You can change your opinion here at anytime.  Do not make arguments here, just state your current stance.''

'''Permanently Alternating? Yes or No'''
:I would prefer a static logo, but I'm ok with alternating if the alternation happens slowly (every 60 minutes minimum). {{User:Bryanc/sig}}

:A static logo is a must. I don't know of any other reputable site who constantly change their logo. {{User:E.L. Cool/sig}} 17:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

:If static is a must, I say C.  Homestar is dumb and loveable, therefore his expression should be pleasant and blank, not deep and pensive like B. {{User:Invisible_Robot_Fish/sig}} 18:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

::I agree with I R F. Concurrence to the max! [[User:4kai2lyn6|kai lyn]] 18:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
:::Gotta be static, and hopefully B as I'd prefer it like the old (current?) one. {{User:ACupOfCoffee/sig}} 06:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I also agree. C is a good idea. &mdash; {{User:Lapper/sig}} 18:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Ditto to Lapper. -[[User:Brightstar Shiner|<span style="color: #800080;">''Brightstar Shiner''</span>]] 21:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hold on, hold on, hold on.  What's a static logo?  {{User:Theyellowdart/sig}} P.S.  I created another [[Bulletin Board|page!]]

*I don't see a good reason to not continue alternating them.  It's basically the same logo.  That way we could keep the B-style fav icon and alternate between B and C.  In all the time it's taking to decide, visitor's to the wiki are seeing alternating logos and probably think that it has changed to alternating versions, changing it to just one will make some go "What happened?"  I relaly would rather alternate them because as I see it, that makes everybody happy.  B and C are there the favicon can stay as the B-style one.  Is there some GOOD REASON why we can't alternate?  I don't see one and I think any reason you give me isn't good enough.--{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 04:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*:I agree with you &mdash; especially since, as Dot com mentioned below, they're not really two different logos, they're slight variations of the same one.  I would prefer to have alternating between B and C than to have C alone (although I can live with that). {{User:Trey56/sig}} 04:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*::I also wouldn't have a problem with alternating (since, like I say below, I don't consider them different logos, but rather different poses of the same logo). It seems, however, that support for alternating wasn't as universal as I'd hoped, and a few people are staunchly against it. For that reason, I think we'd be better off if we picked one. [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 05:23, 16 December 2006

It really doesn't seem like enough people are in favor of permanently alternating; therefore, we need to choose one. It seems like '''C''' has the most support. I have set the logo to remain at C, and I've slowed the blink ''way'' down. At this point, I think it's up to the B supporters to convince us why we should switch to B; otherwise, we should just go with C. Basically: '''Can everyone live with choosing C as our logo? Notice I didn't ask whether C was your favorite logo of all time, but simply whether you can <u>live with</u> what the majority of users seem to prefer.''' (If the answer for you is yes, then you don't need to state anything other than that you agree.) &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 22:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

*I know I can. &mdash; {{User:Lapper/sig}} 22:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
*I can't, no way! I'm gonna leave the wiki...oh wait I like C.  Dot com for president, woo hoo. Muddah fadduh disregard this letter. {{User:Invisible_Robot_Fish/sig}} 23:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
*Gee, I don't know if this'll get deleted, but I'd live with '''C''' blink or no blink.  '''B''' is cool, but it's too much like the logo now... {{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
*No alternating, just '''C'''. {{User:Salty/sig}} 00:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*I think B ([[Image:Homestar Kamikaze Favicon.png]]) makes a better [[HRWiki:Favicon|favicon]] than C ([[Image:Homestar Grinning Favicon.png]]).&nbsp;-- [[User:Tom|Tom]] 04:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Agreed, but there's no reason we can't use a B-style favicon alongside a C-style logo. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 04:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*::I think they'd be much better as a matching set.&nbsp;-- [[User:Tom|Tom]] 04:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::Perhaps we could try to tweak the open-mouth favicon so it looks good, but for me it would be fine if the logo and the favicon were just very close in style even if they didn't match exactly. As it is, I don't truly consider B and C to be separate logos, so in my mind anything that matches them ''is'' part of a matching set. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 04:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*I still prefer B, but I can definitely live with C. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 04:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
*: It's dot com stated that most people do not agree with alternating, although two people in a row agreed for it after my comment.  And most of what I've seen on here seems like people don't mind it all that much.  It's not alternating between two different logos.  It's the same logo with variations in Homestar's expression.  That's the only difference.  If you don't know of any sites that do that, then that would make us all the more special.  It also matches the "fun" of the site by having the expression change.  I still haven't seen a good arguement against it.  I personally would rather NOT have C.  I still vote for B.{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 01:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*::Just a note for clarification: one of the two people you're talking about was Dot com. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 05:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::I believe that alternating is a better idea. That way we can all be happy.--[[User:H*Bad|H*Bad]] 05:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::I'm not in favor of alternating, but the discussion is not about alternating at this point.  As stated, it's about if people can live with C or not.&nbsp;-- [[User:Tom|Tom]] 07:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::It's dot com had not signed his post earlier, thats why I did not know it was him.  I can live with C but I would rather have B.{{User:Bleed0range/sig}} 09:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::::Note, I didn't say there wasn't support for alternating; I said that there were enough people against it. When I first set up the alternating, it was for the sole purpose of evaluating both versions, but it was not intended to be a permanent thing; therefore, we would need near-universal support for it in order to continue it, and we don't have that kind of support. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 19:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
*Yes, C is fine.{{User:Loafing/sig}} 10:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*I've counted '''4''' people that want C, '''3''' people that want B, and only '''1''' of the latter that said that he can't live with C. This is as of Dot Com's "we need to choose one" comment. Don't yell at me for making it seem like a vote because I'm not; I'm just providing visual reference here. -{{User:Brightstar Shiner/sig}} 13:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*:I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but looking at this ''entire'' page, I'd say there is more than twice as much support for C than B among those who express a definite preference. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 19:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
*::I honestly don't know either. <sheepish grin> However, it seems as if C is the overwhelming choice and enough people have voiced their opinion (for some, numerous times) that we can wrap this up. Please? -{{User:Brightstar Shiner/sig}} 21:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::Meh, I think a lot of this confusion could have been easily avoided if you guys had just set up a STUFF-style vote to see who was interested in what.  We've come to fairly quick consensus on a lot of other things in the past by doing that. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 22:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::I don't think it's been confusion, I think this has gone well thus far, and feel like we're all doing a good job of due-dilligence on this very important decision for the Wiki. I think a vote at any point thus far would have been a worse option than taking our time talking this out and making the right decision for the Wiki as a whole. - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 22:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::You have to admit, though, that if you can't tell where Brightstar Shiner is getting the statistics for who supports what, it's confusing.  This discussion is HUGE.  I welcome discussion, but seriously, if we'd put up a vote-style questionnaire for the purpose of gathering information, we could probably have come to a consensus much sooner, and in a much more organized format.  Questions like "What is your preference, B or C?", "Would you like to see the two alternated?", "Do you have a strong dislike of B?", "Do you have a strong dislike of C?", "Do you want to see Homestar blink? (Strong Yes, Yes, No, The King of No)", etc.  These questions, if phrased properly and in such a way that people understand we're just gathering information, would not only make it much easier to just see the results in one spot, but could lead to much more specific, targeted discussions.
*::::::I don't think formal voting fosters consensus; I think it just divides us into two groups over which the majority rules. All of this discussion has been a little difficult to navigate, but overall I don't think it's that hard to discern what people are saying (and we have summarized it at regular intervals so people can keep up). Whenever we have another big decision to make, I have some organizational ideas that might make it go a little smoother, but by and large I think this one went just fine. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 01:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
*:::::::Eh...it's very hard to put everyone's opinion in vote form, mainly because they don't specify which one they ''want''. Almost all of the users that posted here can ''live with'' C, but they might still like B. Therefore, I think the correct tallying should be represented as such: About 90% of users can live with C. Only a few, 10%, flat out objected to it. About 45% (of the 90) liked B as well. C seems to be the winner from this standpoint. Can we wrap this up now? -{{User:Brightstar Shiner/sig}} 03:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*::::::::Yes, I think that this discussion has come to a good resolution.  As you said, most users prefer C, and most of those that don't prefer it can live with it.  As someone who voiced his support for B, I've gotten used to the new logo and I like it. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 03:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
*Well, I prefer B, quite honestly, because C is just asking for Bug in Mouth Disease.  But, like the others, I can live with C, too. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 13:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*I can live with C. It appears everyone can basically live with C. So I would have to say, yes C.--[[User:H*Bad|H*Bad]] 14:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*B, please. More encylcopedic. But only if we can't alternate. - {{User:Joshua/sig}} 14:44, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
*:Way up there, you said, "But if alternating was to be removed, I'd go with C. Looks more friendly and inviting." So, which is it? Encyclopedic or friendly? &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 19:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
*Wile I'd rather B, I'm not going to pitch a fit over C. I can live with it. {{User:ACupOfCoffee/sig}} 08:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
*As was just said while "I'd rather B, I'm not going to pitch a fit over C. I can live with it." I DO disagree with Dot Com when it comes to saying C and B are the same logo with just Homestar's expression changing.  That's just not true.  It is safe in my mind to say that if C is chosen as our new logo, that B is a secondary or alternate logo (which we could then use for the favicon), but to say that these logos are the same is to say that seeing there's no difference between a SBemail and a Toon.  They are part of the same universe, but the expectations associated are different.  Basically we're doing a good job here of updating our logo either way, we are continuing the same background and basic design (I can't tell but it seems we're staying at least in the same family for the logo-type as well).  The defining thing now in regards to our logo seems to be the Kamikaze background and the half-body Homestar, these seem to be what we're choosing to be the characteristics that differentiate us from other "Homestar-style brands," so as long as these exist in some regard we can call it an icon or an alternate logo.  I don't think there's a problem with using a closed mouthed Homestar over the background as our favicon, it still keeps the same essential elements as the icon in our logo, and would still be defined by someone viewing it as consistent with our site and "product." Ok, so basically I think I'm just arguing semantics with Dot Com, and we're really saying the same thing.  Basically what I'm saying is that from a my standpoint, and really from a design and style standpoint, I don't think the concern over the favicon should be a deciding issue in this discussion. To me we could just put a Kamikaze background up there and anything that fit with our logo-type or icon style would still have the same connection.  (Be it closed-mouth Homestar, a big W (for wiki), a Star, etc.) - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 17:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
*:P.S. - Is there still going to be more discussion about the blinking and other details or do we have to discuss that now as well? - [[User:Ilko Skevüld's Teh C|Ilko Skevüld&#39;s Teh C]] 17:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
*I like C slightly more than B, but I have no strong preference for either logo. {{User:KieferSkunk/sig}} 18:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
*Yes alternating sounds good with C and D everyother day. {{User:Snickjames55/sig}}
*Do you mean '''B'''? {{User:Theyellowdart/sig}}
The logo has been on '''C''' for a while does that mean it's the new logo? - {{User:Flamer8965/sig}} 04:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
:Yes. -{{User:Brightstar Shiner/sig}} 21:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
::If this still counts, I pick '''C'''.  [[User:Parp11|Parp 11]]
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-''This is an archive of the conclusion of the [[HRWiki:Logo redesign 2006|2006 logo redesign discussion]].  Please see the whole previous discussion '''[[/Archive|here]]'''.''
+Please see the whole previous discussion here: '''[[/Archive|Archive]]'''.
 ===Where we are now===
@@ Line 149: / Line 149: @@
 :You summed it up well. <s>Since most people want C or alternating, I would say that the logo most people would be happy with is Current Updated Alternating. It includes C, but doesn't rule out B either. If we choose alternating, issues such as the lighting, blinking, and time between rotation will need to be dealt with, but that shouldn't take too long. All in favor of alternating, say "I", if you please.</s> Never mind. After reading the comments below, I say a static logo is best. Sorry I keep changing my opinion. -[[User:Brightstar Shiner|<span style="color: #800080;">''Brightstar Shiner''</span>]] 00:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 ::I had assumed that we had mostly decided on a logo, but if we must have another vote between alternating or C, I must say that I would vote for '''C'''. The alternating could just be a little confusing to some, not to mention I'm quite sure that a few obsessive-compulsive bloggers will be quite frustrated over which logo they should put on their page... for some reason. (Not a very strong argument, but...it could happen). {{User:Bubsty/sig}} 00:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
+:::If this still counts, I like '''C''' the best.  [[User:Parp11|Parp 11]]
 == Towards Consensus ==
@@ Line 214: / Line 215: @@
 :Yes. -{{User:Brightstar Shiner/sig}} 21:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 ::If this still counts, I pick '''C'''.  [[User:Parp11|Parp 11]]
-== Now that we have lived with it ==
-Is the blinking too slow? I have to sit and stare to see it. I really suggest using a 4 second interval as TBC do for the blink. It's not at all distracting, which was the original objection. Let's try it, see how it really goes. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
-:Please, no. I really didn't want any blinking at all; I find it quite distracting and annoying. I considered the slow blink a compromise, as I essentially don't notice it at the slow rate it goes, but once every four seconds would be far too often. {{User:Heimstern Läufer/sig}} 03:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
-::I'm happy with it, and I also don't think we should reopen this discussion. {{User:Trey56/sig}} 03:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
-::I submit you wouldn't even notice if it were implemented. And the fear that it'd be "distracting" is the only reason it hasn't been. As far as reopening a discussion, let's be more specific. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 03:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
-:::People complained when the interval was 4 seconds, and even when it was 15 seconds. The current rate of 25 seconds is a reasonable compromise between a fast blink and having no blink at all. Think of it as an Easter egg. &mdash; [[User:It's dot com|It's dot com]] 05:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
-::::Well, I think it would be nice, but I am not complaining per se. {{User:Qermaq/sig}} 09:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)