Talk:Characters - Revision history

Bleu Ninja: /* Variation Organization */ Do we need those categories?

Bleu Ninja — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 01:29:49 GMT

Variation Organization: Do we need those categories?

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	:*Characters from Fictional Media {{--}} Dangeresque, Teen Girl Squad, Cheat Commandos, Peasantry, Sweet Cuppin' Cakes, Strong Badman, PBTC, Limozeen in Space, Thy Dungeonman, Decemberween, Li'l Brudder, Folk Tale		:*Characters from Fictional Media {{--}} Dangeresque, Teen Girl Squad, Cheat Commandos, Peasantry, Sweet Cuppin' Cakes, Strong Badman, PBTC, Limozeen in Space, Thy Dungeonman, Decemberween, Li'l Brudder, Folk Tale
	:Basically, I've considered every other option I could think of, only to end up looping back around to the page's current layout (with a few subsections shifted around and more descriptive header names). Thoughts? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 00:47, 18 September 2023 (UTC)		:Basically, I've considered every other option I could think of, only to end up looping back around to the page's current layout (with a few subsections shifted around and more descriptive header names). Thoughts? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 00:47, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
		+	::Frankly I'm not convinced that a delineation between "real"/"variant"/"fictional" is particularly useful here. H*R generally operates on [[TVTropes:Main/RuleOfFunny\|Rule Of Funny]] {{-}} Stinkoman is from [[Planet K\|another planet]] [[20X6\|in the future]] so he cannot interact with the regular cast - unless [[3 Times Halloween Funjob\|it would be funny]], in which case [[Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 8.0\|he totally can]] (see also [[History according to Strong Bad]], [[Made-up Real Things]]). Since we already have descriptions on a few of the later points ("A series of text adventures that originated from the Strong Bad Email 'video games'", "A cartoon featuring everyone's favorite one legged pup"), we could just combine your two categories to the general "secondary characters" level and use a one-line description to explain how "real" they are. This also would solve for some weirdness in the current article (e.g. "Ultimate Trogdor" being listed well above Trogdor). --{{User:Bleu Ninja/sig}} 01:29, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc: /* Variation Organization */ simpler solution (basically how the page is already organized)

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc — Mon, 18 Sep 2023 00:47:52 GMT

Variation Organization: simpler solution (basically how the page is already organized)

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	Speaking of Blue Ninja, I do agree with most of those criticisms... We could perhaps distinguish between secondary and tertiary characters by whether they have a filmography category? As for organizations/bands, I don't have a strong opinion; I wouldn't object to their removal, as long as recurring bands with their own characters (like sloshy, Taranchula, and Brainkrieg) are still listed elsewhere on the page. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 22:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)		Speaking of Blue Ninja, I do agree with most of those criticisms... We could perhaps distinguish between secondary and tertiary characters by whether they have a filmography category? As for organizations/bands, I don't have a strong opinion; I wouldn't object to their removal, as long as recurring bands with their own characters (like sloshy, Taranchula, and Brainkrieg) are still listed elsewhere on the page. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 22:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
		+	:My last suggestion was really complicated, so I've given it a bit more thought. Again, the distinction between reality and fiction in Homestar Runner is often blurred, and the different universes rarely interact with each other anyway, so there's not much point to this distinction {{--}} instead, I feel like the more important (and easier to determine) distinction is whether something exists as fictional media within the main Homestar universe. And rather conveniently, everything outside that category happens to feature variations, which meant I only had to divide the sections into two categories (again, names not final):
		+	:*Characters from Variant Worlds {{--}} Old-Timey, 20X6, Storybook, Children, Other Alternates, Minor (Mysfit-steries, Middle School, Petry Dish, Wrestling, 8-Bit is Enough, Xeriouxly, Yonder Website)
		+	:*Characters from Fictional Media {{--}} Dangeresque, Teen Girl Squad, Cheat Commandos, Peasantry, Sweet Cuppin' Cakes, Strong Badman, PBTC, Limozeen in Space, Thy Dungeonman, Decemberween, Li'l Brudder, Folk Tale
		+	:Basically, I've considered every other option I could think of, only to end up looping back around to the page's current layout (with a few subsections shifted around and more descriptive header names). Thoughts? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 00:47, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc: /* Variation Organization */ here's my... probably more than two cents. 53¢?

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc — Sat, 02 Sep 2023 22:03:24 GMT

Variation Organization: here's my... probably more than two cents. 53¢?

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	::*"Organizations" I feel is out of this page's scope. They're an awkward mix of [[Awkward Social Sun\|sight gags where we hear none of their music and see none of the members]], [[Cool Tapes\|groups made up of characters listed earlier on the page]], or [[sloshy\|groups made up of characters not listed on the page]].		::*"Organizations" I feel is out of this page's scope. They're an awkward mix of [[Awkward Social Sun\|sight gags where we hear none of their music and see none of the members]], [[Cool Tapes\|groups made up of characters listed earlier on the page]], or [[sloshy\|groups made up of characters not listed on the page]].
	::It would be really nice to use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_elements MediaWiki's "collapsible elements" function] to condense this page's elements, but [[HRWiki:Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.15\|the HRWiki's version of MediaWiki hasn't been updated in 14 years]] so that's not workable. --{{User:Bleu Ninja/sig}} 03:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)		::It would be really nice to use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_elements MediaWiki's "collapsible elements" function] to condense this page's elements, but [[HRWiki:Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.15\|the HRWiki's version of MediaWiki hasn't been updated in 14 years]] so that's not workable. --{{User:Bleu Ninja/sig}} 03:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
		+
		+	Regarding variations and created worlds: my issue with keeping them separate was that the Homestar Runner universe loves to blur the line between fiction and fictional fiction, leaving it ambiguous as to what's actually "real". But after giving it some thought, I've noticed that some characters are more fictional than others, and I think this page should continue to reflect that. So here's my Overly Elaborate Taxonomy Of Embedded Fiction™:
		+	*'''Real:''' ''Old-Timey, 20X6, Storybook, Decemberween, Child, Xeriouxly'' {{--}} If I recall correctly, these are never directly portrayed as in-universe fiction, and can be assumed to be about as real as the main cast. Even when depicted within some sort of framing device (such as a storybook or play), they are apparently based on true events.
		+	**20X6 is an odd case; while originally made-up by Strong Bad, it went on to take on a life of its own, and no longer appears to be directly influenced or observed by the main cast as fiction. This is the only example I would put in a "Fiction Turned Real" category.
		+	*'''Mostly Fiction:''' ''Mysfit-steries, Strong Badman, Sweet Cuppin' Cakes'' {{--}} The email [[alternate universe]] depicts these worlds as real within their own separate universes; however, in the main universe, they are still primarily shown through fictional media.
		+	**It's implied, but not outright confirmed, that Strong Bad's doodle memory is completely unreliable, which is why I put Mysfit-steries in this category. It could go either way though.
		+	*'''Fiction:''' ''Everything else'' {{--}} These are shown to be fictional at least once, and I don't think are ever depicted as real.
		+	**Again, the variations shown in [[high school]] aren't ''necessarily'' fictional in-universe, but they probably are.
		+	**Limozeen in Space characters are fictional in-universe, but the band [[death metal\|isn't]].
		+
		+	As for minor variations like Xeriouxly Forxe: these are entire galleries linking to only a single page, adding to the page's length without adding much functional value. But you know what Stux, you're right, it is kinda neat to have images of pretty much every character and variation on one page. I'm mostly just a stickler for consistency, so in my mind, the alternative to removing these sections is to also add PBTC, Yonder Website, wrestling, 8-Bit is Enough, [[Other Character Variations\|other variations]] (at least the ones that have personalities and aren't just an art style change), and maybe puppets (I'm not sure if they're different enough from their Flash counterparts to be listed here).
		+
		+	Here's my take on Stux's 3-category suggestion (names not final):
		+	*Characters from Variant Worlds {{--}} Basically the "Variations" category but with the name changed to reflect the fact that, while the worlds themselves are variants of the main one, not all the characters are. This would contain the worlds I defined as "Real".
		+	*Characters from Created Variant Worlds {{--}} For in-universe fictional worlds consisting primarily of variations.
		+	*Characters from Created Worlds {{--}} For in-universe fictional worlds consisting primarily of original characters.
		+	*Alternate Identities {{--}} For variations and personas that exist in the main universe, like the child and Decemberween pageant characters.
		+	We could also combine this with Bleu Ninja's suggestion and split this up even further by moving less significant worlds like Folky Tale to other sections. Dividing these categories based on significance ''and'' fictionality could get a bit complicated {{--}} this sort of thing might work best if the page was arranged as a two or three-axis diagram {{--}} but it could work once we figure out the best section order.
		+
		+	Speaking of Blue Ninja, I do agree with most of those criticisms... We could perhaps distinguish between secondary and tertiary characters by whether they have a filmography category? As for organizations/bands, I don't have a strong opinion; I wouldn't object to their removal, as long as recurring bands with their own characters (like sloshy, Taranchula, and Brainkrieg) are still listed elsewhere on the page. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 22:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Bleu Ninja: /* Variation Organization */ My issues with the page + potential organization approaches

Bleu Ninja — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 03:11:20 GMT

Variation Organization: My issues with the page + potential organization approaches

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	:** Now, if your goal is to somehow make the page smaller so it loads faster, that's another story. A whole other story. At a minimum those galleries would have to be moved to the [[Minor Character Variations]] page and that page should be expanded to serve as an index and gallery for that. But, to be honest, I very much like the Characters page in its current incarnation despite is long loading time.		:** Now, if your goal is to somehow make the page smaller so it loads faster, that's another story. A whole other story. At a minimum those galleries would have to be moved to the [[Minor Character Variations]] page and that page should be expanded to serve as an index and gallery for that. But, to be honest, I very much like the Characters page in its current incarnation despite is long loading time.
	:--[[User:Stux\|Stux]] 00:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)		:--[[User:Stux\|Stux]] 00:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
		+	::I agree that the current organization is rather shoddy... I think this article has the issue (common to a lot of big pages here) where most edits are simply jumping in to add new content, which leads to the page becoming unwieldy and disorganized.
		+	::*I agree with Stux that the gallery of everything is neat to see and scroll through but the page has little functional value; I can't imagine someone new to Homestar finding it a useful guide to learning about the body of work, and an existing fan would likely only look at a section or two. The biggest issue I have with the page as it stands is that "secondary characters" is '''too broad''' and gives '''too much emphasis''' to minor characters.
		+	::**[[The Cleric]] (who has appeared twice) is the first character listed; [[Trogdor]] is one of the most recognizable characters in all of Homestar Runner, but he doesn't appear until 3/4 of the way down the page. [[Monte Negro]] (who has less than ten seconds of screentime) is put on the same level as [[Senor Cardgage]] (who has appeared in [[:Category:Senor Cardgage Filmography\|over 30 toons]], starring in several of them).
		+	::*I don't see the value in differentiating variations "made up by a character" and "made up by TBC". 20X6 is a "sub-universe" that "rarely interact[s] with the main universe" originating from a sbemail, but is listed as a "variation" instead of a "created world".
		+	::*I think we can keep minor sections (petry dish, etc), but if a character doesn't have their own page we should remove the link from their name and only have an all-up "list of [x] variation" characters linked at the title.
		+	::*Maybe we add a "tertiary" section, for sub-universes like "The Li'l Brudder and Maybe Tendafoot Too Show" or "Folk Tale World" that have appeared in three or fewer toons.
		+	::*"Organizations" I feel is out of this page's scope. They're an awkward mix of [[Awkward Social Sun\|sight gags where we hear none of their music and see none of the members]], [[Cool Tapes\|groups made up of characters listed earlier on the page]], or [[sloshy\|groups made up of characters not listed on the page]].
		+	::It would be really nice to use [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_elements MediaWiki's "collapsible elements" function] to condense this page's elements, but [[HRWiki:Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.15\|the HRWiki's version of MediaWiki hasn't been updated in 14 years]] so that's not workable. --{{User:Bleu Ninja/sig}} 03:11, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Stux: /* Variation Organization */ reply

Stux — Tue, 29 Aug 2023 00:44:07 GMT

Variation Organization: reply

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	Finally, since high school, middle school, petry dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe characters don't have their own pages, I feel like those sections should probably be removed; as a substitute, the [[Minor Character Variations]] link could be expanded to a whole section, listing all those pages. Thoughts? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 22:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)		Finally, since high school, middle school, petry dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe characters don't have their own pages, I feel like those sections should probably be removed; as a substitute, the [[Minor Character Variations]] link could be expanded to a whole section, listing all those pages. Thoughts? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 22:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
		+	:Ah, those are very good observations Gfd and I'd agree that the organization of these categories is a bit messy. However, I'm not too sure merging "Variations" and "Characters from Created Worlds" might be the appropriate solution.
		+	:* In my opinion, "Variations" generally covers "alternate versions" of the [[Characters#Main characters\|Main Characters]] (Old Timey, 20X6, Xeriouxly, Mysfit and Middle-school I'd consider the best examples, while "other alternates" is a bit hodge-podgy)
		+	:* On the other hand, "Characters from created worlds" covers made-up universes that have spun off from the main media (TGS, Thy Dungeonman, Peasant's Quest, and Sweet Cuppin' cakes) {{--}} In general these ''may'' have some characters derived from the main characters but the examples I listed ''do not'' have any main characters (except for Casio Head Strong Bad maybe).
		+	:* There is clearly overlap: 20X6, Old-timey, Dangeresque and Xeriouxly Forxe are also from "Created Worlds"; Strong Badman and Cheat Commandos are ''based'' out of main characters.
		+	:* But there is also clear not-overlap: Child and Middle-school variations are ''not'' from created worlds, same for Decemberween (it's a play, so...?); TGS, Thy Dungeonman, Peasant's Quest, Powered by the Cheat and almost all of Folk Tale world is replete with brand new and unique characters.
		+	:** I honestly don't know if Limozeen is part of a created world or not: don't they interact with the main character's "main world"?
		+	:* So, my point is that yes, there's overlap, and no there isn't overlap, but I don't think combining them into one big "bucket" might be the best way to organize them. You kind of lose some organization in here and the pages and categories would likely be updated to reflect this blurry bucket.
		+	:** An alternative could be to have 3 categories on this page? (names not final): MC variations (plain), MC Variations from created worlds, Characters from created worlds.
		+	:* I like the idea of ordering the sections by importance.
		+	:* I disagree with removing the sections for high school, middle school, petry dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe. Even if they don't have individual pages for all the characters, I'm almost certain many of the entries on this page don't either. One of the primary functions of this page is to illustrate all the characters via gallery. I think it's neat how you can scroll through the page and see what the characters look like, not just read a list of their names.
		+	:** Now, if your goal is to somehow make the page smaller so it loads faster, that's another story. A whole other story. At a minimum those galleries would have to be moved to the [[Minor Character Variations]] page and that page should be expanded to serve as an index and gallery for that. But, to be honest, I very much like the Characters page in its current incarnation despite is long loading time.
		+	:--[[User:Stux\|Stux]] 00:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc: /**/Variation Organization

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc — Mon, 28 Aug 2023 22:31:57 GMT

: Variation Organization

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	So far, 4 out of 19 minor character variations pages are listed here. Highschool, middle school, Free Petry Dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe. Why those in particular? Should we remove them? Or include all the minor character variations? Or decide which ones should be here and which shouldn't? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 04:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)		So far, 4 out of 19 minor character variations pages are listed here. Highschool, middle school, Free Petry Dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe. Why those in particular? Should we remove them? Or include all the minor character variations? Or decide which ones should be here and which shouldn't? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 04:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
	:There's a link to it at the bottom of the page, so I think they can be removed. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)		:There's a link to it at the bottom of the page, so I think they can be removed. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Variation Organization ==
		+
		+	Character variations are split across the entire page {{--}} most of them are under "Variations", but storybook variations are under "Secondary characters", and Strong Badman variations are under "Characters from Created Worlds". And on the flipside, not all characters listed under "Variations" are actually variations (like [[Rumble Red]] and [[Sticklyman]]). Since there doesn't seem to be much of a distinction between "Variations" and "Characters from Created Worlds", I'd suggest merging them into a section called "Spinoffs and Variations", or something. Also, the subsections of the aforementioned sections currently don't appear to be in any specific order... I think ordering them from most to least important would be ideal (perhaps measured by number of appearances?).
		+
		+	Finally, since high school, middle school, petry dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe characters don't have their own pages, I feel like those sections should probably be removed; as a substitute, the [[Minor Character Variations]] link could be expanded to a whole section, listing all those pages. Thoughts? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig}} 22:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc: /* Minor Character Variations */ reply to self

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc — Mon, 07 Jan 2019 05:06:01 GMT

Minor Character Variations: reply to self

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	So far, 4 out of 19 minor character variations pages are listed here. Highschool, middle school, Free Petry Dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe. Why those in particular? Should we remove them? Or include all the minor character variations? Or decide which ones should be here and which shouldn't? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 04:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)		So far, 4 out of 19 minor character variations pages are listed here. Highschool, middle school, Free Petry Dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe. Why those in particular? Should we remove them? Or include all the minor character variations? Or decide which ones should be here and which shouldn't? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 04:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
		+	:There's a link to it at the bottom of the page, so I think they can be removed. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc: /**/Minor Character Variations

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc — Sat, 15 Dec 2018 04:43:09 GMT

: Minor Character Variations

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	I don't think Atari Marzipan should be here. She doesn't have a page, whereas [[Atari Homestar]] and [[Atari Strong Bad]], who are also listed, do have pages. If we include her, we might as well include the [[Retro Gaming Character Variations\|rest of the Atari characters]] as well. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC)		I don't think Atari Marzipan should be here. She doesn't have a page, whereas [[Atari Homestar]] and [[Atari Strong Bad]], who are also listed, do have pages. If we include her, we might as well include the [[Retro Gaming Character Variations\|rest of the Atari characters]] as well. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
	:Why are Atari Homestar and Atari Strong Bad singled out? Each of their articles consist of all of five sentences. They have more appearances than the other Atari versions, but are they really separate characters? Since we have the retro gaming variations page, I'd be fine with leaving them off here. That or we should list them all. — [[User:It's dot com\|It's dot com]] 15:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)		:Why are Atari Homestar and Atari Strong Bad singled out? Each of their articles consist of all of five sentences. They have more appearances than the other Atari versions, but are they really separate characters? Since we have the retro gaming variations page, I'd be fine with leaving them off here. That or we should list them all. — [[User:It's dot com\|It's dot com]] 15:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
		+
		+	== [[Minor Character Variations]] ==
		+
		+	So far, 4 out of 19 minor character variations pages are listed here. Highschool, middle school, Free Petry Dish, and Xeriouxly Forxe. Why those in particular? Should we remove them? Or include all the minor character variations? Or decide which ones should be here and which shouldn't? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 04:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

It's dot com: /* Atari Marzipan */ reply

It's dot com — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 15:45:00 GMT

Atari Marzipan: reply

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	I don't think Atari Marzipan should be here. She doesn't have a page, whereas [[Atari Homestar]] and [[Atari Strong Bad]], who are also listed, do have pages. If we include her, we might as well include the [[Retro Gaming Character Variations\|rest of the Atari characters]] as well. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC)		I don't think Atari Marzipan should be here. She doesn't have a page, whereas [[Atari Homestar]] and [[Atari Strong Bad]], who are also listed, do have pages. If we include her, we might as well include the [[Retro Gaming Character Variations\|rest of the Atari characters]] as well. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
		+	:Why are Atari Homestar and Atari Strong Bad singled out? Each of their articles consist of all of five sentences. They have more appearances than the other Atari versions, but are they really separate characters? Since we have the retro gaming variations page, I'd be fine with leaving them off here. That or we should list them all. — [[User:It's dot com\|It's dot com]] 15:44, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc: /**/Atari Marzipan

Gfdgsgxgzgdrc — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 05:20:02 GMT

: Atari Marzipan

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	::::::And the [[Fat Bluebird]] is there too! {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 20:06, 22 June 2016 (UTC)		::::::And the [[Fat Bluebird]] is there too! {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 20:06, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
	:::::::I added an "Animals" section. And maybe some more: [[Edgar]], [[strong badathlon\|Laconic]] (PBTC), [[Fish Eye Lens\|"Your Mom"]] (PBTC), and [[PhoneTime XL8]] ([[Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 17.2\|pseudocharacter]])? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}}		:::::::I added an "Animals" section. And maybe some more: [[Edgar]], [[strong badathlon\|Laconic]] (PBTC), [[Fish Eye Lens\|"Your Mom"]] (PBTC), and [[PhoneTime XL8]] ([[Marzipan's Answering Machine Version 17.2\|pseudocharacter]])? {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}}
		+
		+	== Atari Marzipan ==
		+
		+	I don't think Atari Marzipan should be here. She doesn't have a page, whereas [[Atari Homestar]] and [[Atari Strong Bad]], who are also listed, do have pages. If we include her, we might as well include the [[Retro Gaming Character Variations\|rest of the Atari characters]] as well. {{User:Gfdgsgxgzgdrc/sig‎}} 05:20, 8 August 2016 (UTC)