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The thing about this whole question is that chances are if your not Christian, the form of religion you are has there own plan for afterlife. Chances are that a Jewish man who hasn't lived a good life won't get sent to a Christian hell.

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^Maybe all religions aren't true. And they aren't. I believe that both Judaism and Christianity are true. Thing is, no one can live a good life. Only Jesus, so he went to Heaven. If we believe, as in faith and trust and not just existence, we will go to Heaven.

Are you basing that on fact or opinion? Just wondering. I'd like to see a Pro-Christians view on that.

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Fact.

Please cite proof of this fact

He said he wanted a Pro-Christian view, and that's what Christians believe.

whos edgar?

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Chambers' 21st Century Dictionary (revised edition) defines a fact as "truth or reality, as distinct from mere statement or belief". Ergo, if you cannot prove your statement, you should not present it as fact

Jimmie Johnson, if its you say thats what christians beleive, that means its a beleif, not a fact. When I want fact I actually wondering if there was proof denying other religions (i.e contradictions etc.)

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Edgar was some guy who randomly spammed the entire forum for no apperent reason. But that was the past, so let's move on.

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Yup, that's what I said.



Reductio ad absurdum: the Invisible Pink Unicorn has made a similar offer to you. Do you think it's reasonable, therefore, to believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn?



Well, he has a funny way of showing it, if you ask me. If I wanted a relationship with someone, I'd let them know I existed.



Christianity states that Jesus was the Messiah. Judaism states that he wasn't. They can't both be true.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Each religion has its own relirious truths. Christians say Jesus was the messiah, Jews say no, and Muslims say he was a prophet. There is no right or wrong, it is what you believe to be right.

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But these beliefs are about objective truths. Whether or not Jesus was the Son of God is not a subjective matter; it's a debated matter, but that's a different thing entirely.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Actually Jesus was thechnically a prophet in Judaism too, but he isn't in the Old Testiment, so he isn't talked about when studying it.

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Alright, abou what's being talked about, I meant both Judaism and Christianity are true in how you get to heaven. You can live a perfect life (Judaism), but that's imppossible for every person besides Jesus, and he was the Son of God. If you put your faith and life in the hands of The Trinity (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit) you will get to heaven.

And Upsilon, I'll comment on 2 quotes you replied to.

Alright, the one about what I said about church. Reread your post: You didn't say exactly what I said. You said it's hardly a factor, I said it's not a factor. See the difference? I was kinda magnifying what you said.

And the relationship one. God does show it, everyday, all around you. The miracles, the prayers answered, the new life, the forgiveness, oh I could go on forever.

Thing is though, how do we know that that's God? We have absolutely no proof that all those things are happening because of God. And what do you mean by prayers answered and miracles? In a situation where the odd are stacked against you, most times people will die, but it's just the ones that miraculously live that we here about. And I'm sure that many prayers go unanswered.

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"Sorry, musta got a toenail caught in my throat!"

^Maybe that's it: You just didn't hear about it. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. They are answered all the time.

In the midst of all these beliefs, let there be a light of fact:
You can neither prove nor disprove any religion (assuming that some god doesn't reach down from the sky and sink Australia or something like that).

That's what's funny about the Invisible Pink Unicorn; there's just as much evidence to her existence as there is to most major gods and deities. It's an interesting concept.

Also interesting is the Church of Google, which claims that Google is in many ways like a god because it has the answer to everything, and is everywhere at once.

There is one indisputable proof: the empty tomb of Jesus. At least it's convincing enough for me. You want proof? I seem to remember that St. Thomas demanded to be able to feel Jesus' wounds before he would believe, and for that reason he is often called "Doubting Thomas."

I'm not so sure that you would accept proof if it was offered.

And Upsilon, your pink unicorn argument has no relevance. There are no historical records of any pink unicorn, but there are plenty of historical records of Jesus of Nazareth. A historically documented Messiah has credibility. One who is purely legendary had none. Yes, I am aware that the argument is attempting to ridicule metaphysics, but the fact remains that it does not (and cannot) alter historicity.

Beyond the Grave, there is right and wrong, truth and error. If you believe error, then you are wrong. If you believe truth, then you are right.

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St. Thomas is that your namesake, Diddy.

I said its what ever you believe to be right. if you believe it to be right, even if it is wrong, you still feel that you are right.

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Alright, I feel like "magnifying" this post, too.

Some people may think it was grave robbers or something that causd the tomb to be empty.

Think: This tomb was sealed with a massive boulder, and guarded by soldiers. No way it would be able to be robbed. Yet when the peole came o see it, the guards were asleep (as I heard), the boulder was moved, and the tomb was empty. PLUS, Jesus was seen back alive again, and, as Diddy here said, Thomas even got to touch the wounds. That's proof. This was, is, and will always be a fact.

More proof: This is a bit complicated, and some may not understand this, but there is really a noticable difference in you that lasts forever once you submit your life to God. You immediately get this awesome, indescribable feeling that just fills you up. Its powerful, and you just know that what you submitted, confessed, and asked for forgiveness and reconsiliation just came inside you and is the truth and the life. You just know its a true fact; you know it is (once again) The Voice of Truth!

P.S.: Maybe someone else who has really been led to the Truth can elaborate on this awesom feeling...

Didymus, you can't say that the only possible reason why Jesus' tomb is empty is because he rose up into heaven. Although that's what you believe, I'm sure even you could come up with several other ways that his tomb could've been emptied, no matter how false you make them out to be.

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What makes it fact? Just because someone wrote it? So if I wrote down that I touched an invisible Pink Flamingo, and someone reads it in a couple thousand years that automatically makes it truth.

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I did not say that. Jesus rose from the dead, and the wounds were still there. [i]Thomas touched the wounds a dead guy who came back from the dead to rise to Heaven and be with His (and everyone eles') Father.

A quintuple post, wow the mods are really going to like you.


That is why St. Thomas is called Thomas the Doubter. He was like some people they need to see to believe.

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And that would be spam. It does nothing to further thos conversation. And Jimmie Jimmie, you just need to hit the submit button once. Just because it isn't working rightaway doesn't mean that you have to keep hitting it.

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Oh, sorry, didn't notice that!

Carry on...

If you want to play semantics, I said that it wasn't the most important aspect. I didn't actually say it was an aspect at all.

But seriously, I'm not sure church in its intended form is completely trivial. I'm sure a lot of Christians would tell you that being involved in the Christian community can strengthen your faith.



1) I've never witnessed a miracle, nor heard a reliable source that anything I would deem a miracle has occurred.

2) I don't consider the fact that prayers are sometimes granted (sweeping the instances when they are not under the carpet) to even be evidence of his existence, let alone proof.

3) New life occurs naturally. It could occur without a god, or with an apathetic god, or with the god of some other religion, or with a caring god who isn't even part of any religion.

4) "God forgives me for X." Great, how do I know?



No, but it does mean I didn't hear about it, which is the point I was making in the first place.



For you, perhaps, but not for all scholars. The fact that the tomb is empty doesn't mean that it became empty by Jesus coming to life and walking out.



Yes, according to one source: the Bible. And if we're treating the Bible as a reliable, accurate source, the need for a proof that Jesus was resurrected is easily solved. But we're not.



You speak as if you don't believe those two proofs you just posted to be proof.



All right, then. There is plenty of historical evidence that William Shakespeare existed. More so than there is for Jesus. So if someone had, at the time, published the theory that Shakespeare was the Messiah, then by your logic it would be a more credible theory than Christianity.



Yes, but you'd still be wrong.



Um, no it isn't. It's written in the Bible. That doesn't make it a fact. I don't see how you can add "(as I heard)" after part of your proof and still expect us to find it credible.



I hardly think a gut feeling that makes perfect psychological sense can be deemed a proof of the supernatural.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

Yeah... you can't use quotes from the Bible to defend itself... that's circular logic. And witness testimonies are rarely counted as proof anyway. Not that I doubt the Bible entirely, but I don't condone the "It says it's true so it must be true because that's what it says and it's true" theory either.

It's not circular argument if you actually have a basis for trusting it. For example, considering its historicity. And also consider the reliability of the accounts. What's more, if it were only a single witness, that would be one thing. But there are four different biographical accounts of Jesus' life and ministry, plus at least four other witnesses who confirm their accounts with written witness (Sts. Peter, Paul, James, and Jude). That's eight different witnesses who left written records.

So, circular argument or not, the circle does have a beginning.

And what's more, the arguments against the reliability of Scripture are likewise circular. The only reason anyone has to doubt them are based on their own philosophical presuppositions. For example, Miracles cannot happen. The Bible records miracles. Therefore the Bible is wrong. And because the biblical accounts can be discounted, then there are no such things as miracles. Or, to sum up, "The Bible says something I disagree with, therefore the Bible must be wrong."

But I digress. The subject of the historicity of Scripture and adequate defense of the apostolic writings have already been discussed in plenty of other threads on this forum.

See, here's the problem as I see it. We Christians know God. And by that, I mean with more than just our rational minds. But there are people out there who keep trying to claim we do not. Why is it so difficult to simply trust that we know what we're talking about? Why this compulsion to try to show us we're wrong?


If if if. The fact is that no one has (and if they had, their claims would still be subject to consideration). I really hate to say this, but you really are going way out on the limb of absurdity here.


They're plenty good enough for me. If a blind man cannot see something that I can, then why should I deny what I can see?


I have yet to see any credible evidence that it is not reliable.

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