Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

because if you love someone, you don't do things for them to get something in return. you do things for them because you love them. that's what love is.

besides, there are plenty of people who had no opportunity to even hear about God, so how is it fair to punish them for not believing in Him? or people like me, to whom Christianity makes no sense. "here, believe this impossible thing or you're going to hell." well, no. i don't believe in things that are impossible. and God is not so insecure that He'll torture you forever just for pissing Him off.

i thought that was one of the perks for being a god

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What I meant was, what would be the point of letting people who don't acknowledge he exists into heaven? For them, being around all these people constantly praising God would be like another hell.

I like the parable in Matthew 22:8-13. In those days, in weddings the father would provide nice clothes for all the guests at the wedding. So there was some king who invited a bunch of peasants who didn't deserve to come. Then he noticed that there was a guy who wasn't wearing the wedding clothes that he provided, he was just wearing his normal worn-out peasant clothes. So he kicked him out. Even though he was invited to the wedding, he did not take the clothes that the king provided.
I think many of the non-Christians are like that guy. They think "If God loves me, he'll let me in heaven no matter what," which is true, only if they take the gift of salvation he is giving.

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Many people would argue that the king is wrong for kicking the peasant out. If the king truly wanted the peasant at the wedding, he'd want him there no matter what he was wearing.

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if you're already in heaven, i have a feeling you'd be likely to acknowledge God's existence at that point. don't imagine that heaven is anything like Earth. it's not full of fluffy clouds and angels playing harps, okay?

Yeah, but you still wouldn't like it, if, for your whole life, you've been playing by your rules, when suddenly, you're forced into playing by God's. And, I never said anything about fluffy clouds or anything... but heaven will involve praising God most, if not all, of the time.

He did love him. That's why he even gave him the clothes in the first place. Heck, that's why he even invited him in the first place.

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IT'S HEAVEN. you'll like it. by definition.

How do you know that Heaven would be just about praising God? Maybe God doesn't want to be praised so much--ever consider that? In my opinion, God wouldn't deny someone into Heaven because they weren't dotting all their I's and crossing all their T's in the exact way that certain texts thousands of years old say we ought to. No--my view of a just God would be one who asks "What did you do with this life that I gave you that makes you worthy of enjoying the afterlife?" Details such as whether or not you prayed for forgiveness for cheating on a test way back in 2nd grade isn't something that I think God would hold against you. I think God would be a lot more intelligent and a lot less stubborn than that.

But I could be wrong. What with the ever-increasing population, maybe God's got to be more beaucratic about who it lets in and who it denies access.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Well, it is shown in Revalations that he has angels who's apparently sole purpose of existance is to praise God, 24/7. There is also mention of a time when everyone, regardless of what they had believed prior to that point, will fall to their knees in worship. It seems to me that the Lord does like to be worshiped.

However, (this is my opinion here) worshiping God for eternity might not be exactly what it sounds like at first. Collosians 3:23-24 says that "23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving." I think that this verse tells us that it is possible to praise God through our actions (helping others, making use of our talents, etc.) So, if we look at things that way, heaven could very well be spent by praising God not only through song, but through the usage of whatever God-given talent that one may posses.

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Yeah, but that all operates under the assumption that I believe the Bible to be correct and true--which I don't. My ideas and thougths on Heaven and Hell and the afterlife and spiritual realm in general are much different. Maybe it's just me, but a God that is so needy as to demand that we fall to our knees and worship it for all eternity sounds really egotistical to me.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

But do you honestly think that your works are good enough to get you into heaven? Let's be honest, everyone does wrong things a lot more often than they do good things. Every day, whether in thought or in action, we do sinful things. Let's face it, humans, in themselves, are inherently sinful. The only way we're even going to be able to get into heaven is with God's mercy. He's offering you a free chance to get in, and you're refusing it. So He's saying, "Whatever. If you don't want my help, I'm not going to give it to you."

You can get into heaven anytime you want... you just have to accept what Jesus offers.

Well, if that were the case, then I'd grant that. However, that is not the case: God is completely self-sufficient in every aspect. He does not need anything from anybody. It's actually us, as a fallen creation, that is needy, and God has provided the answer, a way out for us. He didn't demand worship, but we would be foolish not to grant Him that, once we have realized the gift that He's given to us.

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Wow...I highly disagree--at least with the part that says that everyone does a lot more bad than good every day. I go through my life each day attending classes (for now), playing/writing music, and basically hanging out with friends. I care about my friends and family--I do what I can when I can to help them out when I see that they need it, because I love them. Where's the evil come into play? What evils am I doing each day? I don't cheat in school, I don't lie to people, I'm certainly not violent or hateful towards anyone. I don't even think about doing wrong things to others. There's really not anything that I see that I'm doing wrong--details in the Bible aside. No, I don't pray everyday, because I don't feel the need to pray everyday. I pray in my own fashion, when I deem it necessary in my life. I don't care what little details the Bible says I'm supposed to do each day, just as I don't care what little details are laid out in the Q'uran, Torah, Apocrypha, Book of Mormon, or any other religious texts. Why? Because I don't follow organized religions.

And you're saying that just because I'm not taking the time every day to kneel in front of your egotistical God (or whatever I'm supposed to be doing in life each day that prevents me from being so "sinful") that I'm not going to enjoy my afterlife? I don't buy it. The Creator (and other Higher Powers) that I know don't play that way. The God I know would be looking at the bigger picture of my life--not what tiny "sin" that I didn't pray and ask forgiveness for on one specific day in my life. If I lived my life as a good and moral person--in the general, secular sense that we can all basically understand and agree upon, regardless of religion--then I don't see why God would deny me into whatever the "good" version of the afterlife is.



Ah, I see...so what you're essentially saying is that we're supposed to worship God because it's the right thing to do? Well, then, let me ask you this: According to Christianity, who dictates what is right and what is wrong? Does not God? So wouldn't that mean that God--even if indirectly--is telling us that we're supposed to worship it?

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

\That's a very interesting look on religion, PianoMan. The way you look at life is very intriguing, I think people could learn a lot from your methods.

But anyways, it's kind of odd. Everyone here has a different view of a god, if they believe in one. Capt says that God loves us all, no matter what, but cannot be in the presence of sins. This theory sounds good, but 1) Why would God consider not worshipping him a sin if he loves us so much? He gave us the choice to not worship him, how can he punish us for that, and 2) If god cannot be in the presence of sins, no one would go to heaven. As a baby, you sin, sometimes on purpose, but years later, when you become involed with religious practice, you don't rememebr, and therefore do not repent those sins. Therefore, even though you've done as much as you can, you can never make it to heaven.



But, supposedly, god has given us free wiil. If he loves us truly, he would accept us, no matter what.

On a different subject, if satan is evi, why does he torture those who have done wrong? (and by wrong I mean xtereme wrongs, like murder) It seems to me like he's misunderstod, like he simply got a bad job. (I don't know enough about satan to know, so this is a legitimate question I'd like to figure out)

Except that it is not God rejecting us, but rather us rejecting God, specifically the effects he wishes to work in us. If he provides you new clothes, and you refuse to wear them, then are you not insulting both the gift and the giver? It would be like the woman you propose to throwing your ring in the toilet.

Think about it like this: how would you like it if you were an elderly person in a nursing home, and your kids never came to see you, never called, and never wrote to you? But then, when it came time for you to die, all of a sudden, they're all asking for you to leave them things in your will. "I want the house," says one. "And I want the car," says another. And another one says, "I want the bank accounts."

Well, that's pretty much my understanding of that whole, "If God truly loves me, then he'll accept me, even if I never visit him, even if I never talk to him, and even if everything I do is an affront to his righteousness" attitude. You want all the benefits of living in God's grace, but you don't actually want to acknowledge the God who gave you that grace to start with. We Lutherans have a term for that: Cheap Grace. In Clinical Pastoral Education, we had another term: Sense of Entitlement. In other words, you want the benefits of the relationship, but without the responsibilities of that relationship. It just doesn't work that way.

In the Commandments, God declares very upfront, "I the Lord am a jealous God." In other words, like a husband has every reason to expect his wife to be faithful, God expects the people he created to be faithful to him. And since he's the God and we're not, then it's not really our place to tell him how he should do things.

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Oh, I agree. I was aiming the question more towards Capt, however, who has said that god loves us no matter what

Well, I’ll answer that in a sec, Ju Ju. While it’s still on my mind, I’d like to tell what I know concerning Satan.



Oh that subject, Satan (formally Lucifer) actually had one of the better "jobs" in heaven. From what little I know about angels, although I learn what I can, there are several divisions of angels: a group that primarily delivers messeges, a group that serves as a sort of military against evil, and a group that primarily does worship. Of these groups, we have the archangel Gabriel as the leader of the messengers, Michael as the “general” of the angelic forces, and Lucifer was a leader of worship. Lucifer, whose name means bearer of light was one of the highest in rank and splendor, as his duties were extrememly important and brought him in God’s presence probably at all times. A section from Ezekiel has gained some interest because of a possible hint at Satan’s fall. This exerpt from Ezekiel 28 is part of a message that God tells Ezekiel to send to the king of Tyre with a warning against his pride.



While this seems to be directly concerning the king of Tyre, it seems as though God is sending him a warning by comparison, if that’s the right phrase for it. Instead of the king himself, this passage describes Satan before his fall. We see him as one of the most beautiful objects in all of God’s creation, in heaven, earth, and elsewhere.

However, at some point in his heart he envied God and the praise he was getting, and in him sparked a desire to be greater than God, to be God himself. And so his heart was corrupted by these thoughts, and evil was born. He instigated a rebellion, gathering an untold number of angels to his side.

Ultimately, Lucifer, now called Satan (which means “the Deceiver”) and his host of demons (as his angels had become) were cast out of heaven. He still returns from heaven, from time to time, as we can see in the first chapter in Job. Mostly though, we rarely see him in person, except in Eden, where in the form of a serpent he tempts Adam and Eve with the same thoughts that turned him however long ago. In the end, as is shown in Revalations, he and his demons will be cast into hell (he’s not in charge of it, contrary to what is often depicted) and so will end his chaos.

If I explained that well enough, I hope that helps, Ju Ju. I’ll get back to you on the other answer before too long.

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Ok, that makes sense, but why does he tormet the evil in hell?

He doesn't. He's been cast to earth, finding ways to go against God. but one day, God will end it, and throw him into hell.

The torment in hell comes from eternal separation from God.

This doesn't make sense to me...why would God have a military of angels against evil if evil wasn't born until Lucifer fell?

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

Maybe they all did worship before satan fell (and took some angles with him, becoming demons) then once satan fell he maybe split the angles into the groups? Just a guess, God doesnt tell us everything!

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I'm not sure "not worshipping him" is a sin, I think of it as more harming to us if we don't. I admit, I used to share your belief of God being egotistical. But look at it this way. Pretend for a moment that God never exsisted, what would we, as humans, have or be? Nothing. God would never have created us, or this world, so we wouldn't exsist. God loved us enough to make this world for us. Before evil entered it that is. If that isn't enough reason to thank him, he sent his only son (who could have chosen not to die if wanted) to earth, and he died of his own free will for us. That and he gives us a way to escape the punishment that we deserve for our sins. We are more so praising God to show our appreciation for his gifts to us.

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I think my "Old Guy in the Nursing Home" story above explains it. Basically, we human beings are commanded to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength." To not do so is to break an obligation that we all have to the one who gave us life.

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That's if you believe that Jesus was the son of god, and all of the other things you said. I don't believe there is a god. It'sd not like I think there is one but I don't worship him, I don't believe he really exists.

Well, why?

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I could ask you the same question, why do you think god exists? There is no proof that he does exist, and no proof that he doesn't.

A god is completely unscientific and illogical, in my mind. Saying "Let here be light" and having light appear doesn't make sense. It also goes against evolution which, to my knowledge, has been proven. Also, how do you explain animals that lived before humans, such as dinosaurs? Christianity goes against all of what I've learnt and relied on my whole life, I can't forget it all because someone says I'll go to hell if I don't. Fear is probably the main reason many people are christians*, which is the reason I think christianity was "created" in the first place, if you could scare people into being civil, well, they'd be civil. That's just my theory though.

*Not any of you guys, you all seem to know and have faith in what you're talking about.

Hey, not even I fully understand God. But I still have faith in him. And yes, at times I wonder the "Is he real?" question, and every time God sends a sign right away.
Once at a christain camp I thought "wait...how can I be sure that God IS real?" So I said a quick prayer, and the SPLIT SECOND I opened my eyes from that prayer, the speaker said "and let God deliver you from all doubts you may have in him!" or something along those lines....

There has been many things to not dirrectally prove, but some evidence of the Bible being true. Finding charriots under the red sea (from when moses parted it, and crashed it down on the egyptions) then some dude found a massive boat on some moutain, that was dated back WAY long ago (noah's ark).


"Fear is probably the main reason many people are christians"
But are they christains? A wonderful quote here... "Dont run from hell, but run to God"
are they really christains? or just people that do that "God" thing when they need something, or just once a week?

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Okay, I finally have a moment to answer your qquestion Ju Ju, sorry about the wait.

How can God punish us, even though he claims to love us no matter what?

The answer lies in God himself. First of all, let me start off with a few givens. First, God, being God, is holy, perfect, and almighty. He is also loving, merciful, and compassionate. These are not neccesarily extrapolations I've come up with, these have been stated and demonstrated to us before.

Now, God loves us. We've all known that, or at least have been told that. He's loved us before we ever existed, before anything ever existed. We are to him like a child is to its parent. They love him/her, and would do anything for it. God is even beyond that. He knows us, knows you, so totally that is impossible to even imagine. Psalms 139 is a good chapter to look at.

However, another given is that man is sinful. The cause or nature of the sin aside, it is a blemish on ourselves. God, being righteous and holy, cannot have sin in his presence. This means that if anyone has ever sinned is not able to come into his presence (moreover, in heaven) and looking at humanity, it is simple to say that this unfortunately applies to every. Every has sinned (the word for sin in ancient Hebrew translated along the lines of "missing the mark") and thus is unable to go and be with God.

This is a terrible problem. God loves us, but is unable to be with us. SInce he is righteous and holy, he is also just, and that means that he must punish evil, regardless of any and all good deeds performed by an individual. Anything short of perfection must be condemed to eternal separation from God, which has come to be known as Hell today.

Back to the problem. God knows that the sins must be attoned for, without a question. He also knows that he loves us, and would do anything to save us. So, he (God the Son) was born into a human form - fully man, but also fully God (we know him today as Jesus) - to live a wholly blameless life, a life that deserved no punishment, because there was no sin. Then, in the ultimate act of love, he willingly gave himself as a perfect sacrifice. In one action, he took on the sins of everyone who was alive, had lived, and whoever would live. It was said that the sky went black for several hours, during midday (longer than an eclipse would have covered). He died, and experienced separation from God, so that you would not have to. His death covered over yours, over mine, over everyone's.

God, who in his holiness demanded perfection, gave himself, his son, so that we (those whom he loved) could share eternity together, for all of eternity.

God cannot have anything but perfection, and it is humanly impossible to achieve that, but through Jesus, we are able. The price has been paid for, but now the problem lies in simply accepting it. It's comparable to winning the lottery, but never going to claim the money.

I hope that answered your question Ju Ju.

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