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Because the same reasoning goes into a belief in the IPU as in God. If you like, I can replace her with Allah or Brahman. Their disciples believe in them.



That's not your only justification, of course, or you'd be bogged down with contradictory "true" religions. Right?



Well, there's no need to be like that about it. All I meant by that was that your mere assertion that Christianity is true is no more worthwhile as a proof than my mere assertion that it isn't. Don't take it personally now.

If you want to give up, that's fine by me. But please don't get huffy about it.



Christianity in general, surely?

The main problem (though not the only one) I have with that is the proposition that we have to believe to be saved. Surely God's power isn't dependent on us?

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

This is my first post here, so let me make it intellectu-al.

Now. Let me ask you this question. Which is worse: stealing food to feed your family, or murdering your family? The answer is, my friends . . .

Neither. In the Bible, God states that all sins were created equal. Yes. Sins. Thus, murdering someone is just as bad as stealing from them, or vice-versa. It might not make a lot of sense now. Hell, it isn't really supposed to. But once you reach them there pearly gates, you'll get it.

Now, let me tell you something. In my opinion, the Bible is the ONLY source for Christianity. Everything in there has some purpose. However, I do have some theories on certain things within the Bible. Creation, for instance. But that's another topic for another time.

To sum my opinion up; Every sin man could commit is equal to any other given sin man could commit. The Bible is the only source of information for Christianity. I'm a Christian.

To conclude: "Hello, and thanks for all the cheese."

So, I suppose you're taking the 'beyond human comprehension' route, then? Then I'll ask you this question: what sort of god would deliberately make the inhabitants of his creation unable to understand a concept which is vital to rational religious belief? Not the sort of god who wants followers, I'd guess.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

God doesn't need us to follow him. He wants us to be saved, and in order to do that, we should follow him.

You're treating God like he's a human, and he's not. He's a higher spiritual being. Why he does things I don't think we'll -ever- understand.

General Doli:

Our God is human. At least if you take the Incarnation seriously. But I will agree with you on this point: there are some things about God which are impossible for the finite human mind to understand. In fact, it makes perfect logical sense for it to be so. You cannot pour the ocean into a bucket, no matter how hard you try. That is why it is a waste of time to keep trying to shove him into philosophical categories, as some do.

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What it really comes down to is the fact that while you insist that yours is the true God and religion and whatnot, I have yet to see substantial evidence that makes Catholicism, or Christianity in general, for that matter, any more plausible than any other religion. If you can play the "Mysterious, incomprehensible God" card for the Christian God, then why not for Shiva? Or Odin for that matter? People say that when they pray they feel God, but how do you know that Greeks back in the day didn't feel Zeus? Of course, you never feel Zeus in the same place twice, but that's not important.

But as to the actual topic of the thread ("Are all non-Christians going to Hell?"), you must ask yourself this:
What religion doesn't condemn all non-followers to a horrible and probably undeserved fate? Heck, the aforementioned Greek religion condemned everyone to their equivalent of Hell.

The only non-"members-only" religion I can think of is Buddhism, where, if my understanding is correct, you are continnually re-incarnated until you reach Nirvana. That's probably the most promising and, to put it bluntly, nicest religion I know of. And the Buddha never destroyed civilization as we know it.

Actually, that's more like Hinduism. If I understand it correctly, Nirvana is more a state-of-mind, an enlightenment of the spirit, if you will, rather than some sort of afterlife. Furrykef could correct me if I'm wrong.

You do have a point. Almost every religion out there has a "members only" clause. Why Christianity was singled out for this discussion, I cannot say.

But there is one trump card, and I've played it dozens of times already, and that is the Incarnation. Our religion is based on a man who did indeed live, die, and rise again from the dead, witnessed by over 500 people. How could this man do such things unless he were God? For me, it all begins and ends right there on the cross. Had no such event occurred, then I think to me all religion would be pointless. At least as pointless as some kid making up stories about unicorns.

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Let's not forget, Diydy... Didymus... yeah. Let's not forget, Didymus, several FAMOUS and well known Roman and Greek historians described the event with astounding detail. And here's the killer: they were pagans.

In Christianity we believe that you can't 'pay' your way to paradise. In every other religion you have to work your way there. That's what's so amazing. Its not what we do, but what Jesus did for us! Jesus is the way to Heaven, the only way. No, that doesn't mean we should be slackers and not do anything but show our gratitude for His awesome Grace by helping others and telling others of Him. The world's so messed up because its fallen. We need God.
So the short answer is that if you believe the Bible is God's Word, yes, than everyone who doesn't have faith in Jesus doesn't have soul insurance. That's why its such an important thing for us Christians to reach out to others and tell them about Jesus.

Clicky.



Count on a cartoonist to reveal the hidden truth.

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So, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain. Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail? A smile from a veil? Do you think you can tell?

My answer to the cartoonist is that I know of only one God who died and rose again from the dead. And since this God said about himself THESE WORDS, I find no reason to believe that other "gods" are valid.

In other words, leave it to a divinely appointed apostle like St. Peter to reveal divine truth.

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This is the "God transcends logic" argument, second only to Pascal's wager in the list of trump cards most frequently used by Christians. But here's the funny thing: if God transcends logic (which, we both seem to acknowledge, he would have to), what good is it believing in him? You might say "I'll go to heaven because I believe in God", but if we're going to disregard logic, then words like "because" have no meaning. If God is separate from logic, there's nothing to stop him from sending all Christians to Hell and treating everyone else to Heaven, because the only thing which would require him to do so is a logical progression which runs thus:

1) God says that believers will go to Heaven and nonbelievers to Hell.
2) God is benevolent and would not lie.
3) Therefore, it is true.

But with logic out of the picture, it's futile to try and reason like this. He will only refrain from doing all types of crazy crap if he is subject to the rule of cause following effect, which we call logic.

Summary: if logic binds God, his existence is contradictory and cannot be. If it doesn't, his behaviour is impossible to predict, so religion is rendered pointless.



Actually, to be fair, that isn't true. Those who had performed great and heroic deeds went to Elysium, their equivalent of Heaven. Those who had been exceptionally wicked were sent to Tartarus (cf. Hell). Most stayed in the main region of the Underworld, the fields of Asphodel, where it was decidedly neutral. Hades is a synonym for the Underworld in general, and is often misrepresented as meaning Hell.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

How's that? I don't think that anyone claims God transcends all logic, just human understanding. We also know exactly many things which he will do. This is because He is a God of truth and cannot lie. Truth (not exactly logic) does bind God in that He must live and rule exactly in accordance with all truth, which exists independantly from God and from us. If we knew all truth, we could predict and know in all cases what God would do. Being God does not equal "can do whatever he pleases whenever he wants," except for in the sense that being perfect, He only wants to do everything perfectly and in accordance with all truth, and will want that forever. Thus we can count on Him and trust in Him in all cases.

Hope that wasn't too rambly.

You hit the nail on the head there, Racer X. God's not beyond logic, just beyond limited, finite, flawed human understanding.

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For this reason (numbered list, halfway down the post, can't miss it).



It seems to me that we humans have a pretty sound understanding of logic. At least, we have a sound understanding of whatever logic you could use to predict what God will do. Whether he transcends all logic or just the bits we understand amounts to the same.



Hey, I thought he was a God of mercy too, but that theory was bombed down pretty spectacularly.



Not without logic you can't. I think you're misunderestimating the importance of logic ("human understanding", you might have it - a petty matter of semantics which makes no difference to the outcome). Every single thing you do in your life is governed by logic, every choice you make, every conclusion. Absolutely everything is governed by cause and effect. And if God pays no heed to logic (or our understanding of it, whichever you would choose), you can't count on him in the least.

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

I don't know how I missed that post (I guess I was gone for a while,) but here's where that list goes off. Logical Step number 4 is not correct, so any conclusions drawn after that can be refuted.



God loves every single one of us. <- True. No exceptions.
And would do anything to keep us from Hell. <- False.

He will NEVER ever ever force us to obey him through compulsion, control, or dominion. God's methods to influence us include long-suffering, persuasion, gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned, kindness, and pure knowledge. Our ability to choose our own path is his greatest gift to us. Our will is the only thing which we truly own. He does try and influence our will, because of his love for us, but he will never make you accept him, because of his love for you. You have a choice to accept his enticings and receive all that he has to give you. Or you can choose to not accept him, and you will receive that which did choose instead.

With Point 4 unproved, the rest of your chain following that point is moot. Therefore, your proof that God is not a god of logic is unproved and we can start discussing from that point again.

Ah, but he will force us into Hell...? I know where I'd rather be forced.



Ah, but you see, you're employing the old trick of making it seem as if I'm making a conscious decision to go to Hell. Think for a second: do you think I actually want to go to Hell? Of course not. Who would? By its very nature, no-one would want to go there.

See, I'm not actually making the choice to be damned; I'm making the choice not to follow Christianity. You might say that this is the same thing, but consider the following equivalent: you're sitting at home watching your favourite TV show and, unbeknownst to you, a small asteroid is heading straight for your house. If it hits the house with you inside it, you will undoubtedly be killed. Are you making the choice to be killed by an asteroid? Of course not, you're making the choice to watch your favourite programme. Even though the latter entails the former, it's not a choice you're making. And if you had more information, you'd undoubtedly get out of the house as quickly as possible.

The same is true with Christianity. If we infidels had certified proof that we were on the road to Hell, we'd do the best we could to rectify the matter. And God knows that I'd rather go to Heaven than Hell (omniscient). In which case, he'd surely rather I went there (loving). He also knows that if he gave me the information I needed, I could get there. So why doesn't he?

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"You get the Most Annoying Transsexual I've Ever Spoken To award." -The Zephyr Song

I apologize for coming into this conversation half way through, but I found the topic quite interesting. I haven't read all the pages either, so I will probably say stuff that has been mentioned already, please bear with me.

I hear so many agnostics and atheists say "I don't believe cause I don't see any proof" So my question is this, what proof would be good enough? Imo God has given us many signs that He lives, and that Jesus Christ is His Son. On top of that, it has been my experience that when I have prayed to God, he has answered my prayers and let me know that he is real.

Going with the analogy of the falling asteroid, I think that it might be effective to point out that God has promised that all those who seek Him, will find Him. So if all you have to do is step outside your house to see if the asteroid is falling, and people are telling you that the asteroid is falling and there is evidence of the asteroid falling, but you choose to sit on your couch where you are comfortable and say that you can't see it coming, you may just be a bit responsible for your own death when you are incinerated by the asteroid. Now, I know that it may not seem that knowing if Christ is and was the Savior of the world is as easy as looking outside your window, but considering what is at stake, I would think that more people would be on their knees sincerely asking God if it is true.

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This is sort of like what seamusz said. In your analogy, you make it seem like you have never heard anything about the asteroid that was going to hit your house, but it should be more like this:

You are sitting on your couch watching your favorite TV show. People on a forum that you always go to are telling you that an asteroid is going to hit your house. However, you choose to ignore what the people told you and continue watching TV because you have no proof that the asteroid will hit your house.

He's not going to force you into Hell either. You'll just want to go where you're most comfortable. If you would rather live without God in this life, then you will want to live without God in the next life. Your desires won't change.



Ah, I didn't think I was being tricky. I thought I was being straightforward. I don't know what you're imagining Hell to be like, and I'm willing to bet my concept of the afterlife is a bit different than most, but if you don't want God to rule over you now, then that attitude won't change after you die. If someone doesn't want to be part of His kingdom when they leave this life, those same desires will rise with them when it is time to choose their eternal home.



I know that Didymus has hashed over this dozens of times, but I'll just add one thing, you can dispute it, and we'll be done with this. God has sent prophets, apostles, and other messengers since the days of Adam to man, as long as there were people on the earth ready and willing to hear His message. Many of their teachings are written in the scriptures, which we are blessed to have available to each of us.

Now God doesn't want us to rely on the arm of flesh, and man can lie. So He has sent his Holy Spirit to testify of the truth of the words that the prophets have spoken. He has given a fail proof method for us to determine to our own satisfaction whether the words of the prophets are true or false. It takes a humble, willing, and sincere heart to receive the Holy Ghost, but everyone is invited to discover for themselves.

The steps for you to determine whether or not the Christian God exists are:

1) Learn about Him. Begin to read in the scriptures. Compare what you read to your life experiences, to your knowledge at this point. Be honest with yourself, and try judge for yourself if the teachings are wrong. Christ once said in John 7:17 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." So trying to live the doctrine can also help. You can try talking with the minister, bishop, preacher, etc... of the denomination of your choice as well.

2) Pray to God, in the name of his son Jesus Christ, if what you have read is true. Pray to know if God lives, if Jesus lives. In James 1:5 we are told "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

3) God will answer your prayer through the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will touch your spirit to answer you. It will be something that will be distinct, that you will recognize. It most likely won't be a voice or an angel, but you will feel the answer. In Galatians 5:22-23 it teaches us what the Holy Ghost feels like: "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." You may not know all of those feelings, but you know what love, joy, and peace feel like. Goodness will feel like a desire to do good. Often the Holy Ghost is described as a burning in the bosom. A warm feeling in your heart. This is how God may answer your prayer.

WARNING. This only works for hearts that are sincere and desire to know the truth. If you don't want to know for real, and are simply going through the motions, you won't get any answer. This is because, like I said before, God will respect your will in all cases. If you are not truly willing to find out whether God lives, then he won't tell you, because He cannot force you to know that which you don't want to find out. However, if you truly wish to know the truth, and desire to leave the confusion behind, I can guarantee that God will answer your prayer through the Holy Ghost, and you will know the truth. I know this to be true. You may try to convince me that God does not exist, that the prophets are unworthy messengers, but I will not budge, because I know the truth from God through the Holy Ghost, and your word, the word of a man, cannot change what I know.

Good luck on your journey.

^"god pwns all" sums up half the posts here.

We had a debate about this once in Sunday School.

We figured that you would go to heaven if you were unaware of good and evil.

That includes babies and animals.

I'm pretty sure animals don't go to heaven since they don't have souls.

You are my new best friend *high five*

Just out of curiosity, what's the biggest hangup for those who choose not to believe in a God? I've read lots from you guys, and you have espoused dozens of reasons and arguments, but really, what's the big one?

Is it that you suppose it unjust for the sinner to be consigned to a state of misery? You can't imagine a loving God sending people to hell?

Or is it that you just don't like the concept of being subordinate to a God? You would rather live your way than a God's way?

Is it that you think that an all-powerful God should send a more impressive messenger? Men? Bah. Let's send thundrous voices and legions of angels!

I mean, we can continue to swat at flies all day long, but they'll keep coming back as long as the rotting meat is still sitting on the floor.* So please, search your heart, and figure out what your core objection is. We don't need all of the rationalizations and steps you took to reach that conclusion, nor do we need your reasons for believing it. Yet. First, just tell us what your biggest objection is. Then we can talk about that. That's where your reasons and arguments will be listened to and respected and discussed.

For my part: I believe that God (specifically the Christian God of the Bible) lives. I know it because He has told me through the power of the Holy Ghost. I have a million things that, to me, support that belief. But they are not the reasons I believe.

OK, your turn.

*No offense intended, just thought it would be a funny metaphor...

Lack of evidence. The age of the bible. The inconcistencies and the fact that religion is a very useful tool to manipulate the masses.

But that's just me. Others have other reasons.

I find the "age of the bible" argument very interesting for some reason. But I guess it depends on what you mean. Let me know if I'm understanding you. Is this your logic:

Suppose God lives and really sent all of those prophets and apostles that wrote scriptures thousands of years ago. Why wouldn't he do that today? And if he doesn't do it today, why should we believe that he did it thousands of years ago? And if he didn't do it thousands of years ago, why should we believe that he exists?

Also, I think that this is a good step, though I still get the feeling you are putting up a few strawmen, more or less. But it seems like you hint at the core in the last part where you say

Do you feel that if God does exist, then we are his manipulated pawns? Is it that you don't like the idea that you should be controlled by another being, even if he were to be a God?

And I don't think you shouldn't believe something just because it's really old. The only evidence we have of, say, the egyptians or Julius Caesar is really old. Do you believe that they never existed?

Actually, if I understood his Bible is Old argument, he has a very valid point. The Bible teaches that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So if prophets wrote scriptures back then, and if they don't today, what gives? Did God change? If he did, then he's not the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and he disappears in a puff of logic. If there were some other reason that he supposedly isn't calling prophets, such as the wickedness and unbelief of men, then that's something else.

As it appears you understand the bible argument, I'll focus on the stuff that remains clouded in mysteries for you:

Lack of evidence: we aren't talking about some person or some civilization that once existed, we're talking about a huuuge flood and several other things that would scar the earth in such a manner that would HAVE to be found.



I don't mean GOD manipulates us, but statesmen, priest, popes and kings. For (at least a part of) the masses, god is a very convincing argument, and still gross violations of international law are being commited in the name of 'god'. This is what leads me to believe that the largest amount of 'evidence' for the existance of god is being upheld for the sole purpose that the notion of a supreme being is a nice tool to calm down your people. And to get money, too.