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| Author: | Steve [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | The State Of Being in the Spirit form |
I believe that when one dies, there is a possibility of going to one of three places: Heavan Earth And Reincarnation. The form you are in between those realms is your spirit form, or life force. What do you think of this concept of the spirit form or any other concept of your spirit form? |
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| Author: | PianoManGidley [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:49 am ] |
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I don't think your poll options accurately reflect the question. I mean, I believe in a spiritual realm...perhaps not as you described...so I selected other. But what about people who aren't Christian nor Atheist yet have a similar view to what you posted (such as any major religion other than Christianity)? You seem to be trying to pigeon-hole the idea of Heaven as a Non-Denominational Christian view, with an Atheistic view as the only contrast save for the all-inclusive "other." I dunno...maybe I'm just not understanding the thread. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:59 pm ] |
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As a Christian of the historic faith, I believe in the resurrection of the body. When Christ returns, all the dead will be raised. At that point, those who belonged to Christ will inherit eternal life, whereas those who do not will be cast into the Second Death, or hell. I do not believe in reincarnation. I do believe that the souls of the dead exist in an interim state. And until the resurrection, they experience a dream-like existence that is a reflection of their ultimate state. Those who are with Christ enjoy a dream-like bliss not unlike that of the eternal life they will know after the resurrection, whereas the souls of the damned experience a nightmare not unlike the Second Death they will experience when he returns to judge them. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:39 pm ] |
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I do not hold the belief in Hell. So God does not punish people with it. Hell, to me, is a realm of demons and devils. Nothing more, nothing less. So I believe that the dead have already reached heaven itself. Though I do believe that revelation will happen (6 yrs), I don't hold the belief that the they must wait till Jesus is resureckted. I believe that all those who are unrighteous return to the Earth and suffer in another human form. This is a type of reincarnation, but it doesn't explain all. I also believe that people come back when their people need them. You may critisize this, but that is the point of bringing it to attention. I don't press upon anyone this belief. |
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| Author: | Alexander [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:00 pm ] |
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This is going to be interesting. Well, what heaven is like directly after death, and before Christ's return, is not known. Anyone's idea could be taken into account. I know that it's described as a place that is very wonderful in every way. And, a place without sin is already wonderful. But I do not think that I would like to guess right now. Maby a bit later, when I have a few of my thoughts brought together. *puts post on hold* |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:29 am ] |
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Steve wrote: I do not hold the belief in Hell. So God does not punish people with it. Hell, to me, is a realm of demons and devils. Nothing more, nothing less. So I believe that the dead have already reached heaven itself. Though I do believe that revelation will happen (6 yrs), I don't hold the belief that the they must wait till Jesus is resureckted. I believe that all those who are unrighteous return to the Earth and suffer in another human form. This is a type of reincarnation, but it doesn't explain all. I also believe that people come back when their people need them. You may critisize this, but that is the point of bringing it to attention. I don't press upon anyone this belief.
The only problem is that there is no biblical evidence for reincarnation. "It is appointed once for a man to die, and then to face judgment," the Scriptures say (Heb 9:27). Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for reincarnation. |
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| Author: | Cobalt [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:40 am ] |
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Didymus wrote: The only problem is that there is no biblical evidence for reincarnation. "It is appointed once for a man to die, and then to face judgment," the Scriptures say (Heb 9:27). Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for reincarnation.
not quite the case! "G-d does all these things twice or three times with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit to…the light of the living" (Job 33:29,30). |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:32 pm ] |
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Doesn't the verb swb there mean something similar to "to turn back"? It seems that, in context, this isn't speaking of reincarnation, but rather of life experience in which we all go through times of darkness. Notice in previous verses that it speaks of man turning to God, finding favor, and repenting of sins, and then being restored. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:29 pm ] |
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Think past the blind fallowing of western thought, will you? Do you realy get reasurance from the idea that all people that are not a certain way are punish for all eternity? Why do people always have to fallow the conservative view of a bible that was formed by a people whom believed in atrochious punishment as the only way for repentance? News for all christians: the bibal was made centuries after the stories were told. In that span of time, peoples thoughts on life reflect their current living status, thoughts of a set people may change. If God himself is truely benevolent, there is no way he can punish someone with eternal suffering. This is why I don't hold the stories in the old testament as being a way to live by. If you wish to say "You seem nice, but your not christian: so burn in hell" that is fine for you, but I can;t accept that as being God's will for humanity. That's just me, though. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:39 pm ] |
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Quote: Do you realy get reasurance from the idea that all people that are not a certain way are punish for all eternity? It's not reassuring at all. But then again, it's not exactly reassuring that rattlesnakes are poisonous, and yet it's true. Quote: Why do people always have to fallow the conservative view of a bible that was formed by a people whom believed in atrochious punishment as the only way for repentance? I am not sure what you are referring to as "atrochious punishment." Do you mean the cross upon which Jesus sacrificed himself to save the world? Quote: News for all christians: the bibal was made centuries after the stories were told. In that span of time, peoples thoughts on life reflect their current living status, thoughts of a set people may change. Incorrect. There is very strong evidence that the Scriptures were written by the very people we have believed authored them. There are, for example, fragments of papyri of the Gospel of John that date back to the early 2nd century (only a couple of decades past St. John's death). So much for the "centuries later" theory. Quote: If God himself is truely benevolent, there is no way he can punish someone with eternal suffering.
God is also truly just, which means that, yes, he does punish those who commit evil and injustice. This is also the very same God who said, "I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing the iniquity of those who hate me." And yet, this is also the same God who demonstrated his perfect love for us by sending his Son to die for us. It is only through the Son that he has made his redemption available, through the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable that God would punish those who refuse to acknowledge his Son, or to accept the sacrifice that the Son has made on our behalf. Think about it like this. If you were in a battle, and one of your buddies sacrificed himself to save your life, don't you think you'd want that soldier remembered for his sacrifice? How might you feel about anyone who refused to acknowledge his courage, dedication, and sacrifice? Well, I imagine the Father feels the same way toward those who refuse to acknowledge his Son. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:06 pm ] |
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well, maybe we worship different gods. But at least my God is forgiving, like Jesus preached in his great sermon. This is exactly the reason why I don't read the bible in a religious sense. I pity you for your blind fallowing. You really too much on the old thoughts: break free, be your own person. Do you really believe everything you say? |
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| Author: | Beyond the Grave [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:43 pm ] |
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Steve wrote: You really too much on the old thoughts: break free, be your own person. Do you really believe everything you say? Didy is a Lutheran Minister, it's his job to spread the Word of God.
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:52 pm ] |
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Who says I'm not my own person? It just so happens that I am also a person called by God to be a follower of Christ. I just don't believe as you do, and for this reason, you seem to think I am unable to think for myself? And if I didn't believe what I said, then why do you think I would say it? Steve, the God I believe in is forgiving, too. I am Lutheran, and the heart and soul of Lutheran faith is God's forgiveness. That is why he sent his Son, the very Son who cried out as he was dying, "Father, forgive them. They don't know what they are doing." But this is also the same Son who, when he returns, will make war on those who opposed him (notice I said HE will make war, not WE). Being free does not mean I am free to follow a logical contradiction: the God of Justice is also the God of Forgiveness. I cannot follow the God of Forgiveness without also simultaneously following the God of Justice, for they are one and the same. I am not allowed to create my own God; to do so would be a logical absurdity, because such a God would not be a true God. Instead, I am obligated to follow the God who created me as he has revealed himself to me, and that through the cross of his beloved Son, the Good Shepherd who laid down his life for me, one of his sheep. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:46 pm ] |
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I suppose that you than believe that the Muslim God isn't a true God, nor the Anglican God, nor the Salvationist God: the list goes on and on. These faiths created a seperate image of God, and by your deffinition: untrue Gods. Another thign: you can be Just while giving minimal punishment. This is why I believe in reincarnation. Hell of the punishment in the Earth, Hell of the kingdom of Demons is a place where no human soul is brought or given to willingly. I belive that souls that don't live rightious lives, are brought back to the Earth in a lower place to expieriance the challenges of a second life and to try to overcome those challenges. The worst punishment of all is to be seperated from the kingdom of the father. And from the father and son themselves. But add eternal suffering to that punishment: than you're being unjust. This is what I belive. I don't understand why western thinkers think in such a single-minded "you don't believe, so die" manner. |
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| Author: | Beyond the Grave [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:49 pm ] |
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Steve wrote: I suppose that you than believe that the Muslim God isn't a true God, nor the Anglican God, nor the Salvationist God: the list goes on and on. These faiths created a seperate image of God, and by your deffinition: untrue Gods. I have a little piece of info that you should know. All those Gods that you talked about are the same one. It's just how you worship them.
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:53 pm ] |
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(AS IF YOU WERE STUPID) Yeah, I know: but Didy doesn't seem to think so. |
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| Author: | Beyond the Grave [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:55 pm ] |
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Steve wrote: (AS IF YOU WERE STUPID) Yeah, I know: but Didy doesn't seem to think so. Oh no, he does, trust me.
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:57 pm ] |
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I hope so. I know a great many Lutherans, best friends infact. I respect their religion, but I am not Lutheran. I have attended a service in their church, but it doesn't realy convince me. And don't go trying to convert me now, it won't work. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:38 pm ] |
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It is not my job to convert people. That is Christ's work, not mine. But it is my job to speak truth, and that is what I do. But in case you really do want to know the God I believe in:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. I realize this contradicts some people's ideas about God. I cannot help that. But neither can I simply turn against what I have come to know and believe. Quote: The worst punishment of all is to be seperated from the kingdom of the father. And from the father and son themselves. You are correct in this. But keep in mind, since God himself is the source of all goodness, can separation from all good be anything but torment? The chief biblical image of hell is that of "the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth." But also understand, the absence of food is starvation. The absence of comfort is torment. The torment is not something different than being eternally separated from God: it is being separated from God. Quote: But add eternal suffering to that punishment: than you're being unjust. I'm not the one subjecting them to the punishment. That is the place of the Eternal Judge. However, just as it is not my place to punish offenders, neither is it within my authority to dictate what punishments the Eternal Judge metes out. And if he says he will cast his enemies into a lake of fire, then who are we to argue with him? Quote: I don't understand why western thinkers think in such a single-minded "you don't believe, so die" manner.
I do not recall ever telling anyone to die. If anything, my message is essentially, "Find your life in the cross of Christ." Which isn't terribly different that what Jesus himself commanded in Matthew 16:24-25. The reason I do not believe in reincarnation is because Jesus himself didn't seem to endorse the idea, but rather pointed people to the Resurrection of the Body. He is also the one who said that, once in hell, it is impossible for someone to cross that divide back into the realm of God's kingdom. So unless there is a compelling reason to disbelieve what Jesus says on this subject, then I can only trust what he has said. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:54 pm ] |
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I debate with myself wheather I should believe the teachings of the priesta Arius or Nestorius. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 pm ] |
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How dare you refer to the book to find the words of the savior. Christ was a preacher of peace through forgiveness, reward for forgiveness. Not once did he command any one to fallow him or burn in hell. If so, than Christ has lost a fallower this day. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:01 pm ] |
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I can say this on the subject: Arius believed that Jesus was not YHWH of the Old Testament. However, on a number of occasions, Jesus made this claim. For example, when he claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath. Also, in Matthew 25, when he said he will separate his sheep from his goats, he was directly referencing Ezekiel 34, in which YHWH Sabaoth said that it was his job. Furthermore, in John 10, when Jesus says, "I am the Good Shepherd," he was referring to this passage in Ezekiel as well as Psalm 23. Conclusion? That Jesus was claiming to be YHWH who shepherds his people. I really don't know how Arius missed that. At this time, I really don't have much to say about Nestorius. I never really quite understood what his belief was, anyway, and there are some modern scholars who think that he may not have been as heretical as history has made him out to be. But I'll need to review his teachings before I can comment on them, and I really need to get back to the conference right now. Quote: How dare you refer to the book to find the words of the savior. Christ was a preacher of peace through forgiveness, reward for forgiveness. Not once did he command any one to fallow him or burn in hell. If so, than Christ has lost a fallower this day.
Here are Jesus' Exact Words on the subject. But I will remind you, he is not merely commanding: he is stating a simple cause-and-effect. If someone does not find their life in him, then they will not find their life, period. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:06 pm ] |
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Who are we to even concieve what the Lord believes? Most of Genisis happened before man could even write, let alone realize that they were nude. I am a man of the new age, the church of old is jusst that, old. I don't believe that all the things in the bible occured, but I do believe this: Jesus, son of God, eternally one entity and two, did not preach unto his people that all who oppose him burn. Yet the son preached that Peace is the path to heaven, that rightiousness is the path to heaven, that rightiousness can come through preaching peace: by any means. This is the God, this is the Christ I believe in. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:08 pm ] |
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Can you give me any compelling reason why I should not believe that Luke 16 and Matthew 25 did not occur? |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:11 pm ] |
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You are hopeless, you gouge at me with the knife of western thought, but I say this: the shield of rightiousness through peace will hold against the blows. I shall not allow you the courtasy of speaking with me any more. I quit. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:29 pm ] |
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It is interesting that you should mention the Shield of Righteousness from Ephesians 6. For that also mentioned a Sword of Truth, the same sword that comes from Jesus' mouth in Revelation 1 and 2. I have done nothing, Steve, except speak the truth. If this is difficult for you to handle, then I am sorry it causes you pain. I would point out that I merely asked you for your reasons why you reject those citations I made. Incidentally, I'm not sure what "western" thinking has to do with it. We are not at liberty to pick and choose which parts of the truth we wish to accept and follow. This is what Jesus meant when he said, "If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." No one ever promised that the way of the cross was easy, or that everything we learn from following would be comfortable. If we are to follow Jesus, then we must follow the true one, not one that conforms to the image we prefer. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:51 pm ] |
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Your truth, not mine. Don't preach to me what your religion thinks is the truth. Think about this for a second: A people wander the desert for decades, they reach a place where war was once abondant. They take the land by force and proclaim it to be their promised land. Over the coarce of a few centuries, a savior of the people happens to make the locals angry. He commits no crime, but is given capitol punishment because it's what the locals want. He dies on the cross. Later, a few women go to his crypt and discover he's not there. A few people see him and proclaim that he has risen. Because of this factor alone: Christ has risen, it is the most popular religion in the world. Tell me sir: Does this whole story fallow the strict rules of Logistics? Now, I do believe we here, you and I, have at least one thing in common: We both hold the belife in Christ as the son of our God, and that he Rose from death, and that he is the Savior, and that he will come again. Let theses things end this struggle, for we are wasting our breath on eachother. The Truths above^ are the only truths we each accept, but please, let that be it. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:59 pm ] |
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Fair enough. For end the end, Christ himself is the truth, as well as the way and the life. |
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| Author: | Steve [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:04 pm ] |
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There is one thing we agree on. In respect for our common savior: I apologize to you for my speaking in such a fasion. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:35 pm ] |
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If we confess our sins, God, who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Peace of the Lord be with you. |
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