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I want to know what you people think about Islam. I'm talking about the religion itself, not the muslims. Me? I read a translation of the Quaran and found it very, unpleasent. It states "Though shall smight the infidels neck." I don't really see that as peacefull. Or the fact that if women commit adultery they are to be stoned. Adultery is wrong but it shouldn't be punished with a horrible death. So what do you all think?

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

Meh...I've heard from some Muslims I personally know that Islam is actually supposed to be peaceful. Just because you read a tiny fragment of the religious text doesn't mean it necessarily represents the entire idea of the whole. I could just as easily take a passage from the Christian Bible that is violent in nature and say that Christianity is unpeaceful.

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Find me a part of thenew testament that tells you to kill and ill give you $3000 bucks. You also ignored the stoning bit. Thats part of the quaran.

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

How about Exodus 35:2?



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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

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Of course, the Old Testament also says:
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 10:20
But in the New Covenant we don't need all those laws anymore, so it seems kind of weird that Muslims would go backwards to the laws before the New Testament if they say they believe in the Bible and Torah, too

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ahem. I said new testament, not old. Try not editing the quotes next time to your advantage. While exodus 35:2 does say that killing bit, Leviticus 10:20 says "When Moses heard that, it seemed good in his sight." so don't try any more lies with me. Okay. And this still doesn't mean Islam isn't voilent. Read the Quaran for once people.

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

Oops, I meant 20:10. By the way, I'm not 'trying lies with you', I'm a Christian also and I don't believe Christianity is violent or anything, I was just sayin'.

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Sorry for accusing you of being a liar now that thats all cleared up.

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

Excuse me? I did NOT edit a damn thing in your quotes. YOU must be the one who went back and edited your post replacing "the bible" with "thenew testament [sic]"...how DARE you do such an underhanded thing as edit that and then accuse ME of changing your text. Just because you don't like the fact that I actually rose to your challenge and (quite easily) found a piece of text within the Bible's entirety that you don't like doesn't give you the right to ignore it or try to go back in time to change the rules. Now, I'm not asking for any lousy $3,000--I'm not foolish nor greedy enough to think that you were serious about that. But I will NOT stand for someone assaulting my character as a debater just because that person didn't like the fact that I was able to bring about a reasonable, logical retort.

Have YOU read the Qur'an in its entirety? Have you studied it in depth, asking professional religious scholars and other authority figures within the religion of Islam as to what the basic philosophies and teachings are? You tell us to read the Qur'an, yet somehow I doubt that you've actually read it all through yourself. Heck, even the Wiki entry states that "the prescriptions and prohibitions may be broad, so how they are applied in practice varies."

The same goes for Christianity, as I've seen. A very select few people want to adhere to absolutely all the laws, but most are selective, picking and choosing which laws of the Bible they really wish to follow. They even choose some out of one book while leaving others right around it in the same book alone and forgotten, like people who use Lev. 18:22 to say that homosexuality is wrong and should be done away with while ignoring other passages of Leviticus like 11:10 (no eating shellfish) or 19:27 (men may not trim their hair, including around their temples).

The point I'm trying to make is that these religious texts are thousands of years old, so interpreting them for today's modern society is an extremely tricky thing. The bottom line should be, I think, that as long as what you believe and follow does not harm anyone, than it should be okay and no one should interfere with what you believe. Unfortunately, so many people just get so wrapped up in the details (like in my paragraph above) that they forget to step away to take a look at the broader picture and remember what the true lessons are that they should be taking away from their overall beliefs.

So if you want to go around picking and choosing passages from the Qur'an that talk about violence, then I guess you're just missing the point of religion.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

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Well I am a part of my schools debate team and I did a ton of research on this. The history of islam is not good. Whenever someone conquers a nation in the name of islam and wants to convert the inhabitants the rules are: 1. You ask them to convert 2. those that do not convert have to live as dimmis. That means your treated crappily. In turkey a long time ago christians had to pay in children as a tax. 3. kill those that don't choose either. Technically they don't force you to convert but if you don't you either die or get treated as sub human. In saudi arabia christians are humiliated daily. When christian men pay taxes the tax collecter is requiered to "grab them by the beard and slap thm." Is that peaceful????? A woman can't testify that a man raped her unless there were 4 male witnesses. Women are completely mistreated in Islam. It allows the beating of wives. But you being the blind fool you are you cannot see this.

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

So childish and petty name-calling is what you resort to, eh? "Blind fool" am I? Yeah, I'm so blind because I see that religion in this instance is merely a tool that people who desire power or want to act out in hate use as justification that what they do is right. You act as if people never committed crimes in the name of Christianity or any other religion other than Islam. Atheists, Catholics, Protestant Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Pagans, Jews, Hindus--I'm sure you could find people of any religious belief that have committed crimes (perhaps even Buddhists). So because certain societies haven't evolved to the point that we have yet that means that it's the religion itself and not their abuse of said religion in their theocracy that is the problem?

It's painful to realize that there's so much of the world that has yet to catch up to even some of our weaker points of thinking and structure of our 1st-world society, and that such change is still probably not destined to happen for some centuries. But does that give us the right to criticize their religion, when it's so widely practiced by many peace-loving people, including those who live in our own back yard? I don't think so. Yeah, it's appalling what goes on in other countries, but you need to look at the bigger picture before just blaming the religion.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

I fully realize that all religions do horrible things. THe thing is that islam has not stopped doing horrible things because the religion is based on cruelty. I don't critisize the peaceful ones. I critisize the ones that killed 3000 on september 11. I critisize the ones that kill our troops in suicide bombings. You are avoiding the fact that Islam makes women completely unequal. You haven't touched the topic directly at all because you know that there is no argument against it. I would say that forcing women to cover their faces constantely is humiliating. And I am looking at the bigger picture. I see that there are good ones and that there are bad ones. I see teachings that are cruel. The ones that follow the cruel teachings have caused so much harm.

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

Really, whats important to me as far as this debate is concerned,is not whether or not the Quaran is an inherently violent religious text, but rather whether or not muslims have a higher general tendency towards religiously inspired violence, then lets say Christians.

The fact of the matter is they do, or at least they do today.

Islam isn't inherently evil, no more than Christianity is. How can it be?

It's the people who have evil on their hearts and minds that (try) to justify their actions by using Islam as a scapegoat that are the problem. Like Osama Bin-Laden. This has been the same issue with Christianity, and practically any religious belief you could name.

To assume that all Muslims are evil because of the actions of fanatics is outright wrong.

I mean, doesn't the Quran forbid forced conversion?

I can't really argue in defense of Islam point-by-point, because I know so little about its scriptures ... but I do stand by my principles.

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I don't believe that the good muslims are responsible for the actions of fanatics. I feel sorry for them because their fellow muslims are killing many. But if you notice I said that this is about "the ideology, not the people." So i'm talking about the religion itself.

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and the ideology is not inherently violent.
Islam is not any more violent than Christianity. Sorry.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

The religion of Islam is no more violent than Christianity or Judaism. Remember the Old Testament texts? Those things are pretty dang violent.

The more violent Muslims over the course of history that I can see are the Shiites. What you have to remember is that although the Shiites are the majority in Iran and Iraq, they are a minority in worldwide Islam. The majority of Muslims are Sunnis, who, as far as I can tell, are more peaceful.

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Yes some of the old testament texts are voilent. The thing is that neither christians nor jews are still doing horrible things. They have realized that what they did was against they're rules. Islam is unfortunately voilent and it is true. The Sunnis and Shiites are not getting along well. In Iraq they are blowing eachother up. Shiite mosques are being burned by Sunnis. The middle east is not well. And no one has yet talked about the fact that Islam encourages the mistreatment of women. I dare you all to.

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

Okay...concerning the unequal treatment of women, the Bible and Christianity's history has its fair share of mistreatment of women, such as Paul's famous piece from 1st Corinthians:



Also, as for whether or not Islam itself is violent, I found this essay to be quite informative and concise.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

To assume that all Muslims are evil because of the actions of fanatics is outright wrong.

I mean, doesn't the Quran forbid forced conversion?

I believe most Muslims are not violent, but a sizable enough minority of them to be audible are.

Its like when I go into the city. Most people are nice, but theres that occasional guy who honks his honks his horn and gives you the finger, that really destroys the atmosphere.

The thing is that neither christians nor jews are still doing horrible things.

True. Mind you, if that was simply because of the new testement then why did such horrible things extend into the middle ages?

They have realized that what they did was against they're rules.

Now if god ordered it, how could it have been against the rules?

I think that the key thing to remember is that in a discussion such as this (or any, for that matter) you cannot simply cite a sentence of the Bible or the Qu'ran and say that that is what their followers believe. Context is extremely important, and there are also some very interesting and insightful things to be found in the culture of the time. Unless you do a good amount of research, you can't really take a phrase and assume you know what it means.

Par example. I was reading the Old Testament a bit ago and found a verse saying that 'bastards' weren't allowed into religious congregations. Now, at face value, that looks absolutely ludicrous and unfair. Howe'er, if one looks up the Hebrew that is translated into 'bastards' you find that it really is referring to someone born from Jewish and non-Jewish descent, not someone born out of wedlock. This actually makes sense, now, if you note that at the time God was trying to make Israel a distinct and pure nation; such a law was set in place in order to prevent the contamination of their beliefs. (The surrounding nationalities were somewhat barbaric at the time.)

My point is that you must always look at the cultural background and context if you want the full understanding of such texts.

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You're a moron if you think I'm not.

I like to be different so I chose evil. They sure do seem to like killing people. Not that Christianity has a clean history either (Crusades, Inquisition).

I swear, I'm going to convert to Buddhism one of these days. It's refreshing to think of a religion that strives for peace instead of killing everyone you don't like.

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You're ever welcome, Valerie...

Ironically enough, though, the word "Islam" means "peace." But yeah, I really respect Buddhists--total peace and tranquility and stuff. I saw a documentary not long ago with teachings and tidbits from the Dalia Lama, and he is TOTALLY the man.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

The example you cite seems focused translation rather then context. Another example of a mistranslated word is "kill", which actually means "murder" in Hebrew.

Thus,though shalt not kill, really means, though shalt not murder.

When researching incrimidating Koran quotes a while ago, I found that whether or not they meant something bad, all depended on which website I used to get a translation of the Koran. Seeing this led me to believe, that I am incapable of judging whether or not the Koran is violent, as I have no way of reading the book in Arabic, and I cannot seem to trust middlemen.

While translation is quite important, I don't really think context provides much of a barrier, as its really not hard to acquire.

All this aside however, some things (like where God orders a Genocide in the old testement) are followed up too consistently, to be wrriten off as mistranslations, so the language barrier does not provide a complete wall against judgment.

Let's look at what fundamentalism is, shall we?

Yes, the Qu'ran is interpreted literally by some extremists around the world, but so is the Bible (New Testament and Old--making a distinction between them is ridiculous when you refer to Christianity). Have you never heard of an abortion clinic being bombed? Huge rallys to strip rights away from people who do not conform to the Christian belief system (homosexuals, abortors, any separation of Church and State). This is all fundamentalism, or if you will, extremism. This is spawned from literal interpretations of the Christian Bible.


To be blunt with you, your ignorance is absolutely sickening. If you took any time to research the conflict between the branches of Islam, you'd realize that the main problem between the Shi'a and the Sunni is the political leadership (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi'a). This conflict is inspired by a concept called Ahlul Bayt--the Family of Islam. Each branch interpereted this differently, thus the political structure of the branches conflict. That's what causes the terrorist attacks between Sunnis and Shi'a (for the most part).

Islam is NOT inherently violent, in the same way Christianity isn't inherently violent.


Allow me to cite a few translated Qu'ran quotes:

This states that the love between man and woman is holy and a sign of Allah.


A husband and wife should be there for each other in the same way as the other is.


Man and woman are equal in Allah's eyes. They receive the same treatment from him.


Men and women have different rights, but they each have their own distinct rights over each other.


Women have full say in marriage, according to the Qu'ran. They are not playthings of men. Also, the man is not to treat his wife with harm, unless she is absolutely guilty of adultery (the Bible has verses condemning women who have committed adultery).


Men and women were created from the same soul, and have the same human rights.

Even Muhammad said this about women in his Final Sermon:



Just because what you see on TV in the Middle East looks like absolute violence, that doesn't mean that making an extraordinarily prejudiced statement about an entire religion you don't understand is justified.

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Evidence of the ol' glassies! Nothing up our sleeves, no magic little Alex! A job for two who are now of job age! The police!

Why make this distinction between the New and Old Testament? The same God is in both, right? And yes, I'm aware of the Council of Jeruselum and all that. But the fact remains that the God that Christians worship is the same God that commanded Moses to stone adultresses to death - and the same God who (apparently) was a big supporter of killing Canaanites - even if Christians don't have to follow these rules anymore.

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Anyway, I've read the Qur'an - certainly not in any scholarly way, but to a general degree. And yes - there were some things in there that disturbed me and my 20-21st century perspective. Like the passages pertaining to the treatment of non-believers, and those Muslims who break the rules. The exact same thing happened when I read the Bible all those years ago too - a huge chunk of the Bible disgusted me too.

However, there are still big problems with coming to any concrete conclusions based on an uneducated reading of texts like the Qur'an. Two of the biggest - the problem of translation, and the problem of context.

Translation has a warping effect on any text (I'm assuming that you read an English translation, right?). I discovered this myself when I read the Bible. There were passages in there that - I later discovered - meant something completely different than what was actually written. Muslim scholars have made the same complaint about translations of the Qur'an - it's hard to maintain the original integrity of the text in translation.

And coupled with the problems of translation, the problem of context....... I once asked a Muslim friend about a contradiction I found in the Qur'an. Namely, one passage said that Jews were a People of the Book (i.e. that they were the friends of Muslims), but another passage said that the Jews are actually the enemies of Islam. And he told me that the latter passage was NOT talking about ALL Jews - it was talking about specific Jewish sects in Mohammed's time who were openly and violently hostile towards Islam. So I think that highlights the need to closely scrutonise the historical context.

And as regards the treatment of dhimmis and of women - the Qur'an is the very first set of rules that any Arab society had for their fair treatment. The definition of "fair" as it was in Mohammed's time would be vastly from ours, of course, but the Qur'an and the Hadiths specificly states that non-Muslims are to be treated equitably. Mohammed says in At-Tabarani: "He who hurts a dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah." And again in Al-Khatib: "Whoever hurts a dhimmi, I am his adversary, and I shall be an adversary to him on the Day of Resurrection."

And just adding to the points given by thefreakyblueman, the Qur'an also gave Arab women rights that they didn't previously have. In the book called "Women", women are acknowledged as being entitled to inheritance - a right that was not set in stone before the Qur'an arrived.

If Muslims have disobeyed these commandments, if they've misused their religion for shady purposes....... well, that not the fault of the religion. It's just down to the flaws of human nature, plain and simple.

So you are comparing the extremism of suicide bombers to people who don't like abortion or homosexuality? That is wrong.

You also haven't talked about the fact that whenever a country is conquered in the name of Islam the people there are given three choices. 1. Convert to islam. 2. Live as dimmis. That basically means you have almost no rights. 3. Die. This is all in the Quaran. That's peaceful? If they don't convert treat them like crap or kill them. In Saudi Arabia Jews and Christians are being greatly mistreated.

I'm not following what I see on TV. I don't watch it that much. The thing about the Quaran is that it is a book that disagrees with itself. On one hand it is against homosexuality in the land of the living. On the other hand it reccomends it for when you go to heaven. The same thing goes for women. And girls. Mohhamed said "Have your daughters marry before they start menstruate." He had a 6 year old daughter. Pedophilia? Anyone? Yet your quotes show them to be equal. The Quaran disagrees with itself several times. And a question, did you read the censored versoin or the real thing?

Many of the voilent muslims, or at least the ones who support the voilent ones, consider themselves much better than eachother. When something happens that the muslims disagree with look what happens:

[url]http://www.jtf.org/america/america.french.muslim.riots.one.htm

Is that a sign of peacefulness? Last time I checked christians didn't riot when 2 fellow christians with criminal records get chased into a power station and are electrocuted. [/url]

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

So you are comparing the extremism of suicide bombers to people who don't like abortion or homosexuality? That is wrong.

You also haven't talked about the fact that whenever a country is conquered in the name of Islam the people there are given three choices. 1. Convert to islam. 2. Live as dimmis. That basically means you have almost no rights. 3. Die. This is all in the Quaran. That's peaceful? If they don't convert treat them like crap or kill them. In Saudi Arabia Jews and Christians are being greatly mistreated.

I'm not following what I see on TV. I don't watch it that much. The thing about the Quaran is that it is a book that disagrees with itself. On one hand it is against homosexuality in the land of the living. On the other hand it reccomends it for when you go to heaven. The same thing goes for women. And girls. Mohhamed said "Have your daughters marry before they start menstruate." He had a 6 year old daughter. Pedophilia? Anyone? Yet your quotes show them to be equal. The Quaran disagrees with itself several times. And a question, did you read the censored versoin or the real thing?

Many of the voilent muslims, or at least the ones who support the voilent ones, consider themselves much better than eachother. When something happens that the muslims disagree with look what happens:

[url]http://www.jtf.org/america/america.french.muslim.riots.one.htm

Is that a sign of peacefulness? Last time I checked christians didn't riot when 2 fellow christians with criminal records get chased into a power station and are electrocuted.

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http://s3.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=34919

First off, don't double-post, and don't use huge long quotes in your replies where they're not needed.

And second....... I still say that you shouldn't take a text like the Qur'an at face value, when there are so many things that can be lost in translation and in an ignorance of the context. You really need to do a lot more research on the context in which the Qur'an was written before coming to any definate conclusions.

Now, I'm not defending everything about Islam or the man Mohammed. But it's important to research this issue from an objective stance.

By the way, you've not addressed properly the examples that thefreakyblueman gave of the equality of women in the Qur'an. Are they not valid points?

And there's a "censored" version of the Qur'an, is there? Where are you getting that from? (And as a matter of interest, I want to know where you got that "marry your daughters off before they menstrate" too, because I can't find any reference to it.)

Oh, and the Bible never contradicts itself? Hah...there's a plentiful list of Biblical contradictions here. Like the one for War and Peace:

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!