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 Post subject: State of the Union Address or something...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:21 am 
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http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/ ... ml?ref=rss

Well, that's just wonderfull. Mr. Bush will make the US dependence on forign oil magicly disapear. He'll just wave his magick wand and *blamo* all his problems go away.

Yes, the extra oil will come from... um.. a hole in the ground somewhere non-arab. Yes... um... there's lots of untaped oil reserves left in the world. :cheatgrin:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:25 am 
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In case you missed the announcement, we here in the Religion and Politics forum are attempting to move away from inflammatory, insulting, and substance-less posts.

Just an FYI.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:25 am 
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This is why I don't want to run for any sort of office. You will be called an idiot and a moron for anything you do, and that includes actually trying to make a change to alternative fuels.

Unless you totally missed these three paragraphs:

Quote:
He proposed minor tax breaks to speed the development of zero-emission coal-fired plants; revolutionary solar and wind technologies; and clean, safe nuclear energy.

Bush also promised to push for the production of ethanol to power American cars as well as "research in better batteries for hybrid and electric cars, and in pollution-free cars that run on hydrogen."

These measures, taken together, said Bush, will "make our dependence on Middle Eastern oil a thing of the past."


I do sort of wish he recognized the potential in biodiesel though. That'd give agriculture an added boost, I think.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:38 am 
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Ive heard of bio-diesel. One lone night on the history or natinal geographic channel. It seemed to be a bit of a costly expendenture. Although if i remember right it was rather good on the gallon to miliage ratio. As for a boost in agriculture. Eh. Here in michigan. The demand of corn, grain, sugar, and other foodstuffs is already great. Hell my cousin is the district sales manager for great lake distributer of seeds to various farmers in the area. And the demand for some seeds is so high that he is backed up the wazoo, Constantly having to convince farmers to use a differnt grade of seed of the same crop, even that of which they are running out of. Now Id like to know exactly what does bi-diesel run off of exactly. What is it extracting from what perticular part of the what perticular plants? Possibly if fuel could be made out of what most would throw in a compost heap, we could be in buisness no?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:55 am 
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Bush did the same alternitive-fuel tap-dance a few years back, don't you remember? There was gonna be hydrogen filling stations all across america, and we'd all be driving hydrogen fuel-cell cars. He promised all sorts of stuff like that, none of which materialised. You have to remember that Bush & Friends are oil men. They have a vested interest in oil remaining the preminent fuel in america. None of the promised goddies in this speach will arive, they'll all myseriously disapear down the memory hole.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:22 am 
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Sarge wrote:
Bush did the same alternitive-fuel tap-dance a few years back, don't you remember? There was gonna be hydrogen filling stations all across america, and we'd all be driving hydrogen fuel-cell cars. He promised all sorts of stuff like that, none of which materialised. You have to remember that Bush & Friends are oil men. They have a vested interest in oil remaining the preminent fuel in america. None of the promised goddies in this speach will arive, they'll all myseriously disapear down the memory hole.


Actually, nobody in America has more to gain from alternative fuels that the oil industry. No matter how you cut it, we're going to run out of oil that we can pull out of the ground for a profit.

If the oil industry wants to keep their profits, they're gonna have to find another stream of income.

The reason hydrogen hasn't taken off is, at least, two-fold.

1) Gasoline is cheap in America. As long as it's cheap, we're not going to look for anything else (I know, $2-3 a gallon is high for Americans, BUT, go to Europe and tell them $2 a gallon is expensive).

2) The infrastructure for Hydrogen has not been developed. Nobody is going to dump money into building a network of hydrogen stations until there are some cars sold. Nobody in their right mind would buy a hydrogen car unless they could be assured that there will be a place for them to gas up.


I would like to see biodiesel take off. One of the gentlemen that works in my building drives a biodiesel powered truck. He makes the biodiesel himself and, accodring to him, he makes it for about 90% of the cost of just buying diesel. I would like to think that, if he were to make larger batches it would probably bring the per gallon cost down.

Of course, now is the point where someone says "but Bush and his Oil Buddies are keeping alternative energy down!" and I get to laugh at them.

According to a recent presentation I saw as part of our building's weekly seminar series, major oil companies are leading the way in research and development of alternative fuels.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:39 am 
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You do realise that biodiesel is made with :gasp: deisel fule, don't you?
The city transit company has a biodiesel bus project in my city, and the biodiesl they use was originaly made with less-than-1% biological sources (flax and canola oils, actualy). They've since upped it to 5%... but still, that means that it's 95% petrolium-based. Yeah... way to put a dent in those Kytoto targets, bus company. It's something, to be sure, but I wouldn't call it a solution. More like a leaking band-aid. At least those bus fumes smell kinda like a french frys now. I bet that makes McDondals just love biodeisel.. all those hungry comuters, buses spewing nasal advertisments for golden fries... it's like some sort of french-fry salesman's dream.
But, I have gotten off on a tangent. Where's my point again? Oh, yeah, over there. Burried under a ton of tar sands. Right.

Did you know that every five years GM, Ford and Chrysler say that they'll have an emsions-free car in... five years? Yep. The five years roll around, and the big three roll out a "Technology demonstrator" that needs another five years to be ready for the consumer market. Only it never is. GM even had the "EV1" zero-emsions car, which was actualy leased (but never sold) to US customers. Just try finding one now, though. GM stoped making them. They made over 1100 of them but only lease about 800 of them, with a clasue in the lease that said that after the three-year lease was up, the car reverted back to GM. What did GM do with these EV1s after they got them back? Did they re-use them> DI dthey use them as company cars? Nope. They crushed them.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/news ... _ev1vigil/
People still wanted these cars, but nope: Off to the crushing yards with them.

Now, keep in mind that this was a purely electric vehicle, truely zero-emisions. No oil needed, except perhaps for lubrication (but you don't nessisarily have to use petrolium products to lubricate car parts.) The cost for the electricity used to power the car was computed to be 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of the equivalent amount of gasoline, so operating costs surely weren't a factor. So why was the project axed? Simple. GM had Hybred vehicles to sell, and selling a electric car at the same time as you're pushing Hybreds isn't good marketing. GM never intended for the EV1 to become a mass-production car. Now that Mr. & Mrs. Joe American are convinced that Hybred vehicles are all enviromentaly friendly, GM can sit back and say "We love the enviroment" and try and pretend there was something wrong with the EV1.
Have I mentioned how much I love the excelent, excelent, enviromental leadership that folks at General Motors have shown?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:29 am 
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Quote:
You do realise that biodiesel is made with :gasp: deisel fule, don't you?
The city transit company has a biodiesel bus project in my city, and the biodiesl they use was originaly made with less-than-1% biological sources (flax and canola oils, actualy). They've since upped it to 5%... but still, that means that it's 95% petrolium-based. Yeah... way to put a dent in those Kytoto targets, bus company.


There's a really good emoticon for my reaction to this: Image

Why do I find it funny? Because don't understand what biodiesel really is, and just because a bus company uses a drop of real biodisel in their buses you think it's a big joke. I mean really, your going off on a rant about McDonalds and saying your point is buried under a heap of tar sands while showing a complete lack of understanding about biodiesel was priceless. What alternative fuels do you run on? Molten DVDs of Bowling for Columbine, Farenheit 9/11 and Supersize Me?

In reality, the bus company you cite is just using petrodiesel with a small mixture of biodiesel in it. You will find varying mixtures of the two. Wikipedia sez:

Quote:
Biodiesel is a clear amber-yellow liquid with a viscosity similar to petrodiesel, the industry term for diesel produced from petroleum. It can be used as an additive in formulations of diesel to increase the lubricity of pure ultra-low sulfur petrodiesel (ULSD) fuel. Much of the world uses a system known as the "B" factor to state the amount of biodiesel in any fuel mix, in contrast to the "BA" system used for bioalcohol mixes. For example, 20% biodiesel is labeled B20. Pure biodiesel, 100%, is referred to as B100.


Newer cars (since 1992) can make a switch to pure biodiesel and run great. In fact, pure biodiesel can clean the engine of a car. It'll dissolve residues and other junk in the internals. The U.S. military tested this on diesel generators at a base (I forget which) and found that it really cleaned things up--all the mess and junk from running petrodiesel was scrubbed out.

Running on pure biodiesel reduces emissions of CO by 50% and CO2 by almost 79%. While it still emits carbon, it's carbon was already present in the Earth's atmosphere (and therefore recycled carbon), so it's not more carbon introduced into the atmosphere from burning fossil fuels.

Biodiesel doesn't release sulfur into the atmosphere like petrodiesel does because it contains no sulfur in the first place.

Not to mention that since it's made from things like animal fat and vegtable oil, it's biodegradable and non toxic. It's LESS toxic than table salt, even! If you were brazen enough you could probably drink from a hypothetical biodiesel gas station. Not recommended though.

Biodiesel would be a big boost to farmers (as I've said) because vegtable oil--including soybeans (is there nothing the soy bean can't do?)--are a primary source to make biodisel from. It seems algae is the leader in that sector, though.

But, the meat industry can also benefit from offloading waste animal fats from processing meat through this--selling the fat to biodisel companies to convert into fuel. Making use of all parts of what we take from the environment, letting nothing be wasted--that's a Native American concept, ain't it?

As more biodiesel is produced, I think more companies will use greater mixtures of bio and petrodiesel in their fuels, until eventually biodisel is the dominant product.

Moving onwardly:

Quote:
Did you know that every five years GM, Ford and Chrysler say that they'll have an emsions-free car in... five years?


Did you know the EV1 had less mileage than the Hummer H2? And everyone knows how terrible the gas mileage is on an H2. This is likely why the pure electric cars just weren't aggressively sold, and only available on lease. EV1 could go only 130 miles on a full charge, but an H2 can go twice as far (300+). That's quite embarrasing.

Even more embarrasing: A Volkswagen Jetta using diesel fuel--even biodeisel--can go 769 miles on a full tank, I believe. And in all cases, while it doesn't take much time to fill up a car's tank of gas (and would be environmentally sound if it ran on biodiesel--remember that!), it would take somewhere around 8 hours to charge the EV1 to get it to go another 130 miles.

This is likely why the EV1 was strangled in its sleep by GM. There was a demand for it, but in the long run it probably would have failed.

Electric car development is still going, but for right now I think it's restricted to hybrids. 2005 models of the Prius and Escape are the latest among electric/hybrid cars. However, Mitsubishi is trying its hand in zero-emission cars and is mass-prodicing its MIEV. Test fleets arrive in 2006, and will be available two years from now.

Until those cars can run at least as well as an H2 (this may already be close to achieving, I hear some lithium-ion battery tests are getting 300 miles), they won't have the endurance to justify such long charge times for most people.

Quote:
Bush did the same alternitive-fuel tap-dance a few years back, don't you remember? There was gonna be hydrogen filling stations all across america, and we'd all be driving hydrogen fuel-cell cars. He promised all sorts of stuff like that, none of which materialised. You have to remember that Bush & Friends are oil men. They have a vested interest in oil remaining the preminent fuel in america. None of the promised goddies in this speach will arive, they'll all myseriously disapear down the memory hole.


And you have to remember that the hydrogen vehicle and hydrogen economy models are emergent. It takes time and money to develop and build the infrastructure for this! You possibly couldn't have expected that they would zap-poof an entire hydrogen economy by now, would you? Not when they've been working on fusion power since 1970 and still haven't gotten a self-sustained reaction, much less one we can get energy from!

Right now there are 16 Hydrogen fueling stations in California, and they're working to up that to 31. It's servicing all of 95 vehicles thus far. There's a full devoted refueling station in Detroit, one of three across the globe.

Oh, and by the way--did you know oil companies are spearheading the hydrogen economy? That's right! Major partners in California's quest to build a hydrogen infrastructure is BP, Chevron, ExxonMobil and Shell. Shell itself has an entire division devoted to hydrogen economy development.

Tell me, if oil companies have everything to lose by not spreading out and trying to diversify in the face of a clearly obvious end to oil supplies across the globe, WHY would they instead be obstructionist and prevent the proliferation of alternative fuels? I'll answer that one for you--they're not! So much for the "Evil Idiotic Moronic Bush And The Fat Oil Men Conspiracy."

Common sense, dude! Corporations do what it takes to make a profit. They can clearly see the cliff coming. They know that when oil runs out, their corporations are going to crash and burn, simple as that--unless they diversify, explore new forms of fuel, and take the lead. But! Are they still going to produce oil? Oh, you bet. We're not off the black milk by any means, and shutting off oil production right now would accomplish no good. It's going to be a gradual change.

And now, to address StrongRad:

Quote:
Of course, now is the point where someone says "but Bush and his Oil Buddies are keeping alternative energy down!" and I get to laugh at them.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:12 pm 
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StrongRad wrote:
Nobody in their right mind would buy a hydrogen car unless they could be assured that there will be a place for them to gas up.
You're forgetting celebrities. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Union Address or something...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:38 pm 
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Sarge wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/01/31/bush060131.html?ref=rss

Well, that's just wonderfull. Mr. Bush will make the US dependence on forign oil magicly disapear. He'll just wave his magick wand and *blamo* all his problems go away.

Yes, the extra oil will come from... um.. a hole in the ground somewhere non-arab. Yes... um... there's lots of untaped oil reserves left in the world. :cheatgrin:


I think that speech was both 50% fact and 50% pipe dream. It is a fact that if more money was put into the research of using Hydrogen as a fule then it iis quite possible that within the next 10 years it could become a reality. The part where the fact stop and the dream begins is where Bush thinks that as soon as hydrogen powered cars are invented that everyone in America would be able to buy them the second they go into mass production. The truth is that only about 5% percent of Americans would be able to, "America's addiction to oil" won't be gotten over easially.

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 Post subject: Re: State of the Union Address or something...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Prof. Tor Coolguy wrote:
Sarge wrote:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/01/31/bush060131.html?ref=rss

Well, that's just wonderfull. Mr. Bush will make the US dependence on forign oil magicly disapear. He'll just wave his magick wand and *blamo* all his problems go away.

Yes, the extra oil will come from... um.. a hole in the ground somewhere non-arab. Yes... um... there's lots of untaped oil reserves left in the world. :cheatgrin:


I think that speech was both 50% fact and 50% pipe dream. It is a fact that if more money was put into the research of using Hydrogen as a fule then it iis quite possible that within the next 10 years it could become a reality. The part where the fact stop and the dream begins is where Bush thinks that as soon as hydrogen powered cars are invented that everyone in America would be able to buy them the second they go into mass production. The truth is that only about 5% percent of Americans would be able to, "America's addiction to oil" won't be gotten over easially.

That, and he's aiming to end oil dependence by 2025, not 2016.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:10 pm 
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Do a little search on google. I know that Honda had a hydrogen car in Japan for a while. They recalled all the models because of a leak, I believe. Just typing "honda hydrogen" into google news provided this result:

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news- ... s_id=13842

The interesting (and relevant) part is at the very end.

Quote:
The Honda FCX Concept fuel cell vehicle, first shown at the Tokyo Motor Show, also makes its European debut, along with the Home Energy Station III, a system designed to supply hydrogen fuel for vehicles and supply electricity, heat and hot water to the home.


Like it or not, hydrogen is coming. It may take a while for it to replace oil (who knows, maybe oil will never be replaced until it is gone). But why is it so difficult to think that with the rate at which technology is growing that we couldn't find a solution to the oil problem within the next 20 years?

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Eh--I still say the ideal solution lies in a mixture of eletric, hydrogen, and biodiesel (especially).

Biodiesel is probably the easiest to get set up. It has the advantage of being compatible with all current diesel vehicles (especially past 1992). Don't quite me on this, but I think biodiesel MIGHT also be compatible with rocketry and aviation as it stands (replacing kerosene in avgas, jet fuel, and kerosene-hydrogen rocket fuel). I don't know much about it there, however.

That's the main issue--once automobiles are taken off the black milk, we have to consider what to do with rockets and aircraft. Especially jets.

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Trev-MUN wrote:
Quote:
clean, safe nuclear energy.
I don't mean to nitpick, but there's I'd like to respond to that. While nuclear energy is a more efficient energy source than fossil fuels, there remains a major problem with it-- nuclear waste. We really don't have anywhere to put it. Plutonium and Uranium have half-lives longer than any civilization that have ever existed, so maintaining the radioactive crap from going anywhere dangerous gets hard. Would you like a nice pile of gamma radiation in your back yard?

Oh and...
Trev-MUN wrote:
Oh, and by the way--did you know oil companies are spearheading the hydrogen economy? That's right! Major partners in California's quest to build a hydrogen infrastructure is BP, Chevron, ExxonMobil and Shell. Shell itself has an entire division devoted to hydrogen economy development.

Tell me, if oil companies have everything to lose by not spreading out and trying to diversify in the face of a clearly obvious end to oil supplies across the globe, WHY would they instead be obstructionist and prevent the proliferation of alternative fuels? I'll answer that one for you--they're not! So much for the "Evil Idiotic Moronic Bush And The Fat Oil Men Conspiracy."
They're putting in their cash because the current feasible method of obtaining the Hydrogen is nabbing the fossil fuels and playing chemist, bro. Such a system would still make us use oil.


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I don't mean to nitpick, but there's I'd like to respond to that. [...] Would you like a nice pile of gamma radiation in your back yard?


Well, respond to it if you like, but that was quoted from the actual article Sarge linked to (in case you did not notice my pointing that out), therefore those were not my words.

If you want my words on nuclear energy, look here. This is a post I wrote just yesterday.

You'll find your snark is misguided and assuming, if you care to look.

And now I will leave a nice pile of toxic waste in your back yard.

Quote:
They're putting in their cash because the current feasible method of obtaining the Hydrogen is nabbing the fossil fuels and playing chemist, bro. Such a system would still make us use oil.


Not really, bro. You forgot about electrolysis and water gas shift reaction. If I recall correctly, some of the oil company-owned refueling stations use electrolysis for their hydrogen fuel generation. I know the one(s) in Iceland do. There's also research being conducted on thermochemical methods of producing hydrogen.

With electrolysis, you don't need oil at all--just electricity and water, and you'll get your hydrogen. The main issue, then, is getting the power plants off oil in that case, which could be resolved by any number of alternatives ...

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Hydrogen still has a long way to go before it is a viable solution to the energy problem. It's clean burning once it gets to the car, but they still haven't worked out a way to produce hydrogen that doesn't pollute the environment even more than cars running on fossil fuels do. Currently, the best method they have includes lots of electricity, which is being produced by coal. And using hydrogen to make more hydrogen would of course be a bad idea.

Apparently they are working on a new method for making hydrogen that relies on genetically engineered bacteria, though. So there are solutions, none that are workable at the current time though.


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Didn't the Hindenberg run on hydrogen? OH THE HUMANITY'D!!

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If only they could get Cold Fusion to work, huh?

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Didymus wrote:
Didn't the Hindenberg run on hydrogen? OH THE HUMANITY'D!!

No, it was filled with hydrogen to ghive it boyancy. And it blowed up real good. But you have to remember that the Hindenburg was a massive airship, containing 200,000 m³ (7,060,000 ft³) of gas. The ammount of gas needed to power a automotive hydrogen fuel cell is not nearly as massive, and it would most likely be stored a liquid hydrogen (for space-saving and safety reasons). You stand about the same risk of fire or explosion from a gasoline tank as you do from a compressed Hydrogen bottle. The great thing about Hydrogen is that it's lighter than air in gasious form, so if the bottle leaks it's not going to form a pool of deadly explosive gas... it will probably just disipate into the atmosphere.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a greater percentage of imported oil that goes into manufacturing plastics than goes to fueling cars in America?

If that's true, then alternative fuels are fine and dandy, but could only put a small dent in our consumption of oil--not erradicate it completely by any means.

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PianoManGidley wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a greater percentage of imported oil that goes into manufacturing plastics than goes to fueling cars in America?

If that's true, then alternative fuels are fine and dandy, but could only put a small dent in our consumption of oil--not erradicate it completely by any means.


I've heard that, but I don't know if it's true or not.

It'd be really interesting to find out.

I should have asked someone during the energy impacts of weather symposium. I probably coulda gotten some answers, as there were some higher ranking energy policy people there.

Energy policy officials, yet another reason I love the American Meteorological Society's annual meeting.

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PianoManGidley wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a greater percentage of imported oil that goes into manufacturing plastics than goes to fueling cars in America?

If that's true, then alternative fuels are fine and dandy, but could only put a small dent in our consumption of oil--not erradicate it completely by any means.

Except it's not true. For starters, most oil is used for transportation, not for making plaistcs.
Acording to the DOE (See http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petr ... %20Product
[quote = DOE]In the United States, in contrast to other regions of the world, about 2/3 of all oil use is for transportation, as shown in the graph. (In most of the rest of the world, oil is more commonly used for space heating and power generation than for transportation.) Gasoline, in turn, accounts for about 2/3 of the total oil used for transportation in the United States. Other petroleum products commonly used for transportation include diesel fuel (used for trucks, buses, railroads, some vessels, and a few passenger autos), jet fuel, and residual fuel oil (used for tankers and other large vessels). [/quote]

So, while it's true that if we run out of oil, coal, and oil sands we will run out out of the nessisary hydrocarbons to make plastics with, we'll run out of gasoline first.

We could star making plastic out of synthetic hydrocarbons but with today's technology it probably could never be made to be a cost-effective solution. Perhaps some nanotech process would be used to restructure matter directly at the molecular level with little nanobots. :eek:

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Didymus wrote:
Didn't the Hindenberg run on hydrogen? OH THE HUMANITY'D!!


The problem with the hindenberg wasn't the hydrogen, it was that they painted it with rocket fuel.

Well, that's a bit of an oversimplification, but quite relevant none the less.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:39 pm 
That's it, im going to the year 2015 and getting a Mr. Fusion.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:49 pm 
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Bring me back a flying DeLorian, will you please? :)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:10 am 
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Meanwhile, here in the present...
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/flamey.html

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:36 am 
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Racerx is exactly right here. Like you guys said, hydrogen currently comes from either refining those foreign oils that we don't like, or by using electricity. The problem is thermodynamics: Energy cannot be created or destroyed. In other words it has to come from somewhere. And modern civilization uses a lot of energy.

I'm all in favor of alternative fuels; ethanol is the reason premium fuel in Iowa is cheaper than regular. But refining soy or corn into fuel also takes energy. For that matter, so does pumping and refining oil. While oil gives you back more energy than it takes to refine it, ethanol takes more oil to make it than it does to burn it. (I guess it's not that way with biodiesel, so maybe I"m missing the point.)

Anyway, that's why hydrogen won't solve any energy problems, unless that bacteria thing works out. Makeing hydrogen from water with electricity does not create any energy, it just stores energy that came from somewhere else; you still need your oil-burning power plant to make the electricity. In Iceland, most of their electricity comes from geothermal energy (right?) so hydrogen does work. Here, if we want to be free from oil dependence, we need to change the main source of energy, not just the fuel we put in our cars.

Me, I can't wait for cold fusion, or maybe neutrino reactors. :p

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:29 am 
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Here in Canada, we have a bountyfull supply of Cold for use in your hypothetical "Cold Fusion" reactors. We would be happy to sell* you some of our Cold in exchange for what I am sure could be a very reasonable price. Please inquire during winter months only, as Cold is a highly a valued comodity during June, July and sometimes August.
*Offer not valid in Quebec. Some heating may ocur during shipping. Please expect 4-6 weeks for delivery. Flying DeLorian not included.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:07 pm 
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Ok, dug up the article about the hydrogen. One mistake in recollection, it wasn't bacteria, it was algae. They are harnessing and modifying photosynthesis so that the algae produce hydrogen rather than oxygen as the byproduct. Or something like that.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:04 pm 
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Norman Rorqual wrote:
The problem is thermodynamics: Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Actually, that's not entirely true.

In terms of chemistry class, that's true. When you move into the modern physics class, you find out it's not true.

Surely you've heard/seen Einstein's famous E=MC^2 equation.
It relates matter to energy. Matter can be converted into energy, energy can be converted to mass. When you multiply the mass (even a VERY small one) by the speed of light, you get a tremendous amount of energy. I want to find a good website to explain it, but the ones that do it justice also involve VERY intense scientific treatment and a lot of math that even I have trouble wrapping my mind around.

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