evin290 wrote:
Hm... that sounds strikingly similar to something that happened in Europe in the late 30's early 40's... um... hm... I'm drawing a blank here...
Trying to avoid Godwin's Law?
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| Author: | Ricksea [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The Bible... |
We've been talking about the bible a lot here on this thread. Didn't we already conclude that we live in a non-religious union and that a religious testament shouldn't impact our legal system? We've also already talked about the significance of the bible in the first place. In fact, there's so much to be said about this matter that I may just start another thread on it. Discount Brick wrote: I didn't mean we force it, I'm just saying that I believe homosexualty is not very right, and that we should teach people at an early age that it's not right.(no offence, rosea) Did you refer to me as "Rosea"? It's RICKSEA. I hope that that was just a typo, because I don't appreciate jokes like that. ModestlyHotGirl wrote: Second: Kudos to Ricksea for "coming out" in such a sensitive topic, and on a forum that (unfortunately) appears to be pretty anti-gay. Congrats, Rick. You're tougher'n anyone else on this forum.
Thank you, ModestlyHotGirl. |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Good point, Ricksea. The Bible has taken the stage in this arguement (mostly because that's the only reasoning people can think of against same-sex marriages.) In my opinion the bible has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not homosexual people should be able to get married. It's all a matter of equal treatment. God has his place, but not in the government. In terms of legally bonding marriages, the gov't should allow same-sex marriages because that's only fair. Also, there isn't much reasoning behind being against it. Even if you don't approve, it doesn't affect anyone's lives except for those who would be able to get married. If you had a lollypop, but you didn't want it and a little kid asked you for it, you'd give it to them to make them happy. (crappy analogy, I know...) |
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| Author: | thefreakyblueman [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:44 pm ] |
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evin290 wrote: Good point, Ricksea. The Bible has taken the stage in this arguement (mostly because that's the only reasoning people can think of against same-sex marriages.)
What are you talking about? The abstract notion of homosexuality kills American family values!!!11!!1! ... [/sarcasm] Anyway, I agree--it's always the religious deal. What if the majority religion ("Fribbinism", in this example) of the country thinks that Christians or Jews or Muslims are bad peoples, and should not be allowed to marry? Obviously, the minorities (in the example) who are being picked upon will be infuriated and will bring up the "Separation of Church and State" law, but hey--the majority rules, and Fribbinism will then impose its principles illegally upon the country. |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:48 pm ] |
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that freaky blue thing probably wrote: What if the majority religion ("Fribbinism", in this example) of the country thinks that Christians or Jews or Muslims are bad peoples, and should not be allowed to marry? Obviously, the minorities (in the example) who are being picked upon will be infuriated and will bring up the "Separation of Church and State" law, but hey--the majority rules, and Fribbinism will then impose its principles illegally upon the country.
Hm... that sounds strikingly similar to something that happened in Europe in the late 30's early 40's... um... hm... I'm drawing a blank here... |
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| Author: | furrykef [ Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
evin290 wrote: Hm... that sounds strikingly similar to something that happened in Europe in the late 30's early 40's... um... hm... I'm drawing a blank here...
Trying to avoid Godwin's Law?
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I wasn't trying to avoid it. I was just cleverly disguising it. Discount Brick wrote: we should teach people at an early age that it's not right
Why should we brainwash children into being intolerant just because you want us to? |
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| Author: | Dr. Zaius [ Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
evin290 wrote: I wasn't trying to avoid it. I was just cleverly disguising it.
Discount Brick wrote: we should teach people at an early age that it's not right Why should we brainwash children into being intolerant just because you want us to? Indeed. "Teaching children [insert people} are not right/inferior" is the major reason racism still exists. Not too many racists are born from tolerant parents... |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:00 am ] |
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I've actually recently studied Gordon Allport in school. He was one of the first to fully examine this theory of how hatred and prejudice is acquired. Man the topic has strayed... We're talking about racism now... What was the topic at hand? Oh yeah, same-sex marriages. Discount Brick wrote: The part where god created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but does what God believe really influence your FEELINGS. I mean, it can influence your beliefs, but you can't say "God would want me to be happy, so I'll be happy." Emotions don't work that way. You can't say that "Because God doesn't think I should be in love with someone of the same sex, I'm not going to be in love with someone of the same sex." I actually sometimes watch the Trinity Network to make fun of the TV Evangelists and their baises and this one guy actually said "homosexuality is the work of the devil. God could not have created such horrors. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Bruce!" How do you even know that God NEVER intended homosexuality to take place? He just needed the human race to develop before it could exist. Now here's a mind-boggling question. (This is meant in theory, and I'm not saying that it's true or anything but...) What if God INTENDED for homosexuality to take place in order to slow down the rate at which the human population increases? What if God actually WANTS homosexuals to exist? Wow. I just thought of that right now. I swear it wasn't a preconceived notion. That's pretty cool. 
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'll put it to you this way: I feel pretty sure it wasn't his intention because he have condemned it in both the Old Testament and in the New. Granted, that doesn't mean much to you if you reject the Scriptures as being God's Word. But for those of us who do take the Bible seriously, then this issue is pretty much settled for us. |
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| Author: | Paradox [ Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
That's one of my theories, Evin. The population has exploded due to medical breakthroughs and the lack of ramped war, so who's to say homosexuality isn't nature’s way of balancing out the heard? All the other animals have some way of reaching that level point. Didymus, you know darn well we don't care what the bible says. We know it was men who wrote it. Men who made their bigoted views into religious dogma. That's why taking the bible as literal truth is dangerous. homophobia isn't necessarily a Christian thing, just the ones who refuse to give their beliefs a little breathing room. Oh, I'm Docta Z, by the way. I was banned for some reason and had to make another account at school... |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Thanks for supporting my theory, Paradox, but I do care about what the Bible says. Maybe not to the same extent that Didymus does, but I still know that the Bible has meaning. My standing is that you can't say that NONE of the Bible's principles can be applied today, but you also can't say that ALL of the Bible's principles can be applied today. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: We know it was men who wrote it. Men who made their bigoted views into religious dogma. That's why taking the bible as literal truth is dangerous.
And yet you fail to give me any reason to consider it anything other than divine revelation. |
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| Author: | Phenom [ Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I agree with you Evin. However, the only principles in the Bible that can apply to day are "common sense" ones. Don't kill, don't steal, have respect for your family and friends, ect. Quote: And yet you fail to give me any reason to consider it anything other than divine revelation.
If nothing I said thus far has, then there isn't anything I can say will... It's Zaius again. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
You're probably right about that, Zaius. There isn't much you can say to convince me. But even more than that, I do have to point out that, for the most part, you argue like a child. Evin, Upsilon, and others who've disagreed with me were at least willing to explore some issues, and usually offered some insight or evidence to support their own opinions. You, on the other hand, usually try to speak as if you're some sort of expert on the subject, as if people should just believe everything you say because you say it. You don't engage in dialog, Zaius, you preach. But you conveniently ignore those things which matter to me. My own spiritual journey, my own studies of history and theology, my own life's calling. Several times you've told me that my life was meaningless, but you know nothing about my life, so you really have nothing meaningful to say on that topic, either. Jones (who by the way, would probably have been on your side otherwise), has already warned you about your attitude. It's been nice arguing with you, but now you are an uninvited guest. I suggest you not push your luck with the mods. |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
And also Ziaus, if you think it's bad for Christians to say "I'm a Christian and everything everyone else says isn't right" (which I'm not saying they do, but it seems that you are saying they do,) you're doing something just as bad by saying "I'm an atheist, there is no God and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong." On the subject of theology no one can be proven right or wrong, you can only believe what you believe and take into consideration the beliefs of others. So what if the Bible says that homosexual marriages shouldn't take place? If you believe something different, that's fine. That's why this country is great. You can believe whatever you want. In most cases of totalitarianism, you're only ALLOWED to believe what you leader believes. We're allowed to disagree with Bush, but you have to take into consideration his and everyone else's views. Sorry for the rant
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| Author: | Didymus [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Thanks, Evin. Actually, I'm kind of sad to see Zaius go. Whatever else you might say about the guy, he certainly had zeal. True, I didn't always appreciate his preferred method of communicating, but he certainly did keep us on our toes. If he could only temper his zeal with wisdom...but then again, I sometimes have the same problem. |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
What do you mean gone? His account was *for some reason* blocked, he can still post. |
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| Author: | AgentSeethroo [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
evin290 wrote: What do you mean gone? His account was *for some reason* blocked, he can still post.
*sigh* His account was blocked for a *good* reason. He can only post because he keeps creating new email addresses and accounts, which in turn get blocked/banned. If you have a problem with a decision any admin/mod makes, pm that admin/mod. But back on topic: Gay marriage: Right or Wrong? Heh. I personally don't really know where to stand, but if you look through my earlier posts in the topic, you'll see that. |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Oh. In his post, he implied that he accidentally got blocked. I didn't know you guys did it on purpose, but: no problems here. Well, in my opinion, in this case, right and wrong don't matter. It's all about equality. This country's constitution grants equality for everyone. If heterosexual couples can get married, in terms of equality, so should homosexual couples. Despite whether you think it's right or wrong or natural or moral or whatever, homosexuals should still be treated the same as heterosexuals. |
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| Author: | Ath-a-late [ Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
As a Christian myself, there's something that really ticks me off when others judge me. I'm not perfect and I don't have all the answers either. I just happen to know where I am going after life and on the way, I try to live a good life and bring others to the truth. When it comes to same-sex marriages, I'm completely against it. But I don't treat them any less different. The Bible says to "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" and that goes for everyone-- not just your friends. But of course, the publicity they get just plain baffles me. I don't feel that homosexuals are being backed up in a corner like they claim to; I feel like I am! |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
That's an interesting point, but I didn't mean different treatment socially. I meant different treatment legally. The American government can't control how people think of homosexuals, but they can treat them equally in terms of the law. And marriage is part of the law. (I hope I don't seem like I'm backing you up into a corner. You're open to your social beliefs, I just think that legal equality is the only way to go.) |
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| Author: | homestarman17 [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
As a Christian, I beleive that God created man and woman to be married, and also, I think it is just plain gross for to men or women to be married together. My opinion, please don't hate me... |
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| Author: | thefreakyblueman [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
homestarman17 wrote: As a Christian, I beleive that God created man and woman to be married, and also, I think it is just plain gross for to men or women to be married together.
Weirded out?!?!! Homesatamarda2, I believe what you meant to say was "I think it's just plain gross for two people of the same gender to marry", as what you said is a rather blatant contradiction. And no, no one is going to hate you for your opinion, but I personally think that's rather offensive to anyone who is homosexual, as you used the term "gross". Also, if you take what the Bible says there literally, why not all of it? (I'm assuming you don't stone children if they sass back to their parents) |
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
homestarman17 wrote: As a Christian, I beleive that God created man and woman to be married, and also, I think it is just plain gross for to men or women to be married together. My opinion, please don't hate me... I agree with freakyblueman, even if you don't approve of homosexuality, the term "gross" just isn't fitting. Using the word "gross" can only make me assume that you're a little kid, who probably thinks that sex between a man and a woman is gross! (If you're not or if you don't, tell me then.) Sorry if that came across has harsh. I don't hate you just because I have a different opinion than you, and anyone who does hate for that reason is not very bright  Oh, and how do you know that God created only men and women to be together? I wrote: What if God INTENDED for homosexuality to take place in order to slow down the rate at which the human population increases? What if God actually WANTS homosexuals to exist? Oh, and you said: Quote: I beleive that God created man and woman to be married
God definitely didn't create marriage. God created men and women to reproduce, but maybe homosexuality is a preprogrammed way to get out of overpopulation. (See above) |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Actually, God did create marriage. As he declared in the beginning, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." This is an early form of "I pronounce you man and wife." As can be demonstrated from Jesus' words, "'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." |
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| Author: | ModestlyHotGirl [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Didymus wrote: What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
Sorry if this seems ignorant, but I take that last line to be more of a stand against divorce than against homosexuality. Is the Catholic church not against divorce as well? Maybe I'm just misinformed. |
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| Author: | kerrek_slaya [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
My personal belief is that if homosexualpeople wish to marry, why the *** shouldn't they be allowed to?! It shouldn't matter to people who are considered 'normal' what homosexual people feel about each other. The country should NOT be deciding whether homosexuals get to marry each other. My belief: if they want to marry, let 'em. I don't care if you disagree or make comments aboutmy post; this is MY BELIEF.[/i] |
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| Author: | Plaster-Man [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Actually, God did create marriage. As he declared in the beginning, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Or maybe's its the fact we mate for life like other animals. Quote: The part where god created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!
Hey, wasnt Adam and Eve the ones who got humanity kicked out of the garden of even? And seeing how supposedly god did create all of us, he did make Adam and Steve. Being a Non-Theist myslef, I am pro-gay marriage. I respect all the Christian/Jew's views on this, but bad things always happen when the chruch comes into the state (Ex. Middle Ages, WW2 Germany). I like debating here. Everyone seem's to be respectful, which is ore then I can say to other ones I've been on. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:36 am ] |
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ModestlyHotGirl wrote: Sorry if this seems ignorant, but I take that last line to be more of a stand against divorce than against homosexuality. Is the Catholic church not against divorce as well? Maybe I'm just misinformed. That last part is basically opposing divorce. I quoted it merely to point out that Jesus was offering that first part ("and they shall become one flesh") as the institution of marriage. If so (and I see this as the case), then God had indeed pronounced Adam and Eve husband and wife. Also, that the normal course of marriage should be one man one woman. Now, as you might have noticed, I tend to stay out of the political side of this debate, and only comment on the theological side. I was really only responding to Evin's claim: Quote: God definitely didn't create marriage.
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| Author: | Evin290 [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I think you misunderstood, Didymus. I didn't mean that God didn't create the NOTION of marriage, or the IDEA of marriage, but the ritual and nuances of marriage were created by people. Plaster-Man wrote: Or maybe's its the fact we mate for life like other animals. I don't necessarily agree with you there. If humans are supposed to instictivly mate for life, why do so many marriages today end in divorce? Plaster-Man wrote: Being a Non-Theist myslef, I am pro-gay marriage. You don't have to be atheist to be pro-gay marriage, nor do you have to be pro-gay marriage if you are atheist. Opinions about the law and opinions about religion are very different things. I believe in God, but I am for gay marriage. I'm sure there are some atheists who believe that gay marriage is wrong. Plaster-Man wrote: I like debating here. Everyone seem's to be respectful, which is ore then I can say to other ones I've been on.
That's one of the reasons I like to debate here to. Everyone respects other people's opinions (as long as you have facts )
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