| Homestar Runner Wiki Forum http://forum.hrwiki.org/ |
|
| Do kids these days have no faith? http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6368 |
Page 2 of 3 |
| Author: | Jimmie [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'd have to agree with Cobalt on this one. It's wrong to lie, even if the result is adorable. Lying is lying, no exceptions. It's a sin, and thus should be avoided to make sure you don't fall into it. If I ever have kids, I'm going to be sure to tell them the truth. |
|
| Author: | Kittie Rose [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jimmie wrote: I'd have to agree with Cobalt on this one. It's wrong to lie, even if the result is adorable. Lying is lying, no exceptions. It's a sin, and thus should be avoided to make sure you don't fall into it.
If I ever have kids, I'm going to be sure to tell them the truth. Lying is lying no exceptions, hun, in this day and age we've come to the conclusion that black and white thinking is the result of a primitive brain that has trouble adapting. The thing most resembling backing to those statements was that "It's a sin". Not everyone who celebrates Christmas is Christian, considering it wasn't even originally Christian to begin with. There's nothing anyone's provided to show how telling kids Santa is real is actually wrong, or hurts anyone. |
|
| Author: | Jimmie [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Christmas Rose wrote: The thing most resembling backing to those statements was that "It's a sin". Not everyone who celebrates Christmas is Christian, considering it wasn't even originally Christian to begin with.
Wasn't originally Christian?!? Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus, which is definitely Christian. |
|
| Author: | Einoo T. Spork [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jimmie wrote: Christmas Rose wrote: The thing most resembling backing to those statements was that "It's a sin". Not everyone who celebrates Christmas is Christian, considering it wasn't even originally Christian to begin with. Wasn't originally Christian?!? Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus, which is definitely Christian. Keyword: "originally". Before Christianity even existed, a pagan holiday occurred around the same as Christmas does today. When Christianity came along, it made the holiday Christmas purposefully coincide with the event to stamp out paganism. According to who you ask, the actual date of the birth of Jesus is anywhere from March to September, but most people agree it was nowhere near December 25th. I pay attention in History class. Hah. |
|
| Author: | Jimmie [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
^I never said that he was born on December 25th. I said it's celebrated on the 25th. I figured it was originally a Christian holiday. And I have never heard anything about it being otherwise until I read your post, so...don't give me any of that crap (trying to say that as unoffensively as possible). Of course, I don't pay attention in history class or in school at all, and I'm proud of it!  School sucks (and I mean it)!
|
|
| Author: | Mr.KISS [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Well, what he said was true. I believe the Holiday in question was the Winter solstice or something, but I'm no history teacher. You should google it if you want proof. |
|
| Author: | Cobalt [ Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Christmas Rose wrote: They're kids. They live in fantasy worlds regardless. Do you know remember what it was like to be a child, or did you get dropped on your head at some stage? insults are not necessary, and they don't help support your case. they only make you look like a jerk. don't you think it's a parent's job to teach their child about the world they live in? the real world -- or at least the world that the parents themselves believe to be real -- and not just keep the kids as ignorant as possible for as long as they can? worse than keeping them ignorant: actually causing them to believe things that the parents KNOW aren't real? it seems almost sadistic to me, taking pleasure in another person's folly. it's putting a stumbling block before the blind, taking advantage of a child's trusting nature and limited knowledge. Quote: you actually need me to explain why lying is wrong? fine: it degrades the currency of language. ...what? As I said numeroues times, one line assertments are NEVER evidence or proof. You're saying that, without exception, even if it saves someone's life, all lying is wrong. You haven't provided a shred of any kind of construct that shows that telling kids Santa exists might hurt them. That's not a healthy stance. Perhaps if you had a less binary worldview you might see how there are times that "lying" is beneficial.[/quote] lying degrades the currency of language: if nobody sees anything wrong with lying, and everyone feels free to lie whenever they please -- because it's "fun" or "adorable" or whatever -- then language loses its currency; there's no reason for anyone to believe anything that anybody says, ever. that's the logical extension of the behaviour. i'm sure there are reasons for lying beyond saving someone's life, but "because it's fun" doesn't qualify. how about cheating on your spouse? it's basically the same thing -- you promised to be faithful to them, except you lied. you led them to believe something that wasn't the truth, because it benefited you (you get to have sex with someone else) and benefits them (they get to think that you're faithful to them). do you think that's okay too? i don't think that something is necessarily ethically acceptable just because it doesn't visible hurt anyone. you expect other people to be truthful with you. your kids expect you to be truthful with them. and as for your dislike for binary world views, throwing everything into a "grey area" is just intellectual laziness, it shows that you're unwilling to put in the effort of making distinctions between things. what's right is what you want to do, and what's wrong is what you don't want to do. every "shade of grey," if you choose to look closely enough, is just patterns of black and white, after all. |
|
| Author: | Bugkiss [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Wow. Did anyone read the first post in this thread? Toastpaint. |
|
| Author: | Kittie Rose [ Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: insults are not necessary, and they don't help support your case. they only make you look like a jerk. I'm the one with the weak case now? Oh dear. Quote: don't you think it's a parent's job to teach their child about the world they live in? I think it's the parents job to ensure their child lives life to the fullest. Of course such trites as "Happiness" are obviously meaningless to you. Quote: the real world -- or at least the world that the parents themselves believe to be real -- and not just keep the kids as ignorant as possible for as long as they can? worse than keeping them ignorant: actually causing them to believe things that the parents KNOW aren't real? it seems almost sadistic to me, taking pleasure in another person's folly. it's putting a stumbling block before the blind, taking advantage of a child's trusting nature and limited knowledge...... That's nice. So why is it bad to tell kids Santa is real? Quote: lying degrades the currency of language: if nobody sees anything wrong with lying, and everyone feels free to lie whenever they please -- because it's "fun" or "adorable" or whatever -- That's use of the Slippery Slope, which is, as much as you hate to see it, a logical fallacy under most circumstances; this being one. You need to provide evidence that this is occuring or else you have nothing. Quote: how about cheating on your spouse? it's basically the same thing -- you promised to be faithful to them, except you lied. Cheating on your spouse could potentially hurt them a lot. Unlike you, most kids get over them being told Santa was real. Quote: you led them to believe something that wasn't the truth, because it benefited you (you get to have sex with someone else) and benefits them (they get to think that you're faithful to them). That's very scissored and glued together logic. How does having sex with someone else benefit your spouse in the same way Santa brings magic into a kid's life? Does your spouse only think that you're being faithful when you do lie to them? That doesn't make sense, but it's the only way you could have an accurate comparison. Kids would be less happy if they didn't believe in any kind of magic. Quote: and as for your dislike for binary world views, throwing everything into a "grey area" is just intellectual laziness,
I'm not throwing everything in a grey area as I detest moral relativism. I'm throwing it into a white area, actually. |
|
| Author: | DeadGaySon [ Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
personally, I never really belived in santa, as long as I can remember. My parents told me he existed and everything, I just never belived. I never told my parents I didn't believe, and I never told me class mates I didn't belive, I let them have their fun. It just seemed inconcievable to me. I've always relied on logic, since I was very young. Sometimes it's not such a good thing, but there it is. Did not believing in santa harm me in any way? I doubt it. It wouldn't have been too bad if I had believed in him for a while, and I would have been able to deal when it came time to know the truth. I see nothing wrong with Chris Cringle. |
|
| Author: | The Zephyr Song [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I actually asked my mom about Santa and all thems when I was around 7 or 9. We don't even keep up the facade anymore for my little sister. The only Santa motifs in our house are the Santa ornaments on our tree and the Christmas specials that feel the need to include him. We have a family gift-shopping day at the mall every year and my sister and I tell each other what our parents are getting and then annoy the crap out of each other, each offering/threatening to spoil the surprise for the other one. Santa is just quietly forgotten, until Grandma has to interject. But my sister and I play along when our little cousin is there, because she's only about eight and is still young enough to believe. Or maybe she's just polite, I don't know. 
There's my two cents. |
|
| Author: | Musachan [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Santa's a cool guy, whether he's real or not. Just his very essence is pure, good and true. Anyway, in my Junior year Chemistry course, my teacher made one of my classmates cry because she said Santa wasn't real. The girl's parents lead her one for THAT LONG. I'm not even sort of joking. The chick was lucky we were like an all girl's school and she wasn't teased endlessly for it (her parents were MAD though, threatened to sue and such). |
|
| Author: | StrongRad [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Musachan wrote: Santa's a cool guy, whether he's real or not. Just his very essence is pure, good and true.
Anyway, in my Junior year Chemistry course, my teacher made one of my classmates cry because she said Santa wasn't real. The girl's parents lead her one for THAT LONG. I'm not even sort of joking. The chick was lucky we were like an all girl's school and she wasn't teased endlessly for it (her parents were MAD though, threatened to sue and such). This was funny... Then I read the "threatened to sue" part. It became hillarious! Junior chemistry class, so she was, what, 16, 17 years old? That's gold! |
|
| Author: | ??? [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bah. I'm almost 14 and I still think he's real. I FREAKIN' HEARD HIM WALKING AROUND DOWNSTAIRS WHEN EVERYONE WAS IN BED. And I believe that if you catch him, he has to grant you 3 wishes. I mean, the guy's magic, right? |
|
| Author: | StrongRad [ Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
??? wrote: Bah. I'm almost 14 and I still think he's real. I FREAKIN' HEARD HIM WALKING AROUND DOWNSTAIRS WHEN EVERYONE WAS IN BED.
And I believe that if you catch him, he has to grant you 3 wishes. I mean, the guy's magic, right? It used to be 3, but, like everyone else, Santa made cutbacks. Now, I think you get one wish, and you have to share it with another person that catches him. He also took out that "I wish for infinite wishes" thing. Stupid corporate America
|
|
| Author: | Acekirby [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Cobalt wrote: i just think that lying is wrong, ESPECIALLY to your children. unless you have a very good reason for it, like someone's life is in danger. ever heard of "honesty is the best policy?" Are you serious about that? So, in your case, you would reveal to your children every truth about life. "Santa isn't real" "<Insert the Facts of Life, aka Reproduction>" "Rapists and killers walk the streets" ...And a whole mess of other things. I don't know about you, but if I had been told every aspect of life as the straight truth, I would be one messed up child. I would have no innocence whatsoever. Here's a Wikipedia article that is, at least partially, on the subject. StrongRad wrote: ??? wrote: Bah. I'm almost 14 and I still think he's real. I FREAKIN' HEARD HIM WALKING AROUND DOWNSTAIRS WHEN EVERYONE WAS IN BED. And I believe that if you catch him, he has to grant you 3 wishes. I mean, the guy's magic, right? It used to be 3, but, like everyone else, Santa made cutbacks. Now, I think you get one wish, and you have to share it with another person that catches him. He also took out that "I wish for infinite wishes" thing. Stupid corporate America Roffle. |
|
| Author: | Cobalt [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Acekirby wrote: Are you serious about that? So, in your case, you would reveal to your children every truth about life.
"Santa isn't real" "<Insert the Facts of Life, aka Reproduction>" "Rapists and killers walk the streets" ...And a whole mess of other things. I don't know about you, but if I had been told every aspect of life as the straight truth, I would be one messed up child. I would have no innocence whatsoever. what's "innocence," anyway? i don't buy it. you just mean "ignorance." a parent's job is to teach their child how to live in the world, not to help them live in complete denial. you do have to tell your kids about reproduction, eventually, you know. you do have to let them know that bad people might want to hurt them, or how will they ever know not to trust every stranger they see? i'm not saying that you have to tell your child EVERYTHING all at once, but you also don't tell your kid that everyone in the world is nice and nobody will ever hurt them, or that a stork brings babies. because that's lying, and it's ridiculous, and it's also damaging. would you not tell your kid that sticking a fork into an electrical outlet is a bad idea, because you're afraid of taking away its "innocence"? |
|
| Author: | Musachan [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
StrongRad wrote: This was funny... Then I read the "threatened to sue" part. It became hillarious!
Junior chemistry class, so she was, what, 16, 17 years old? That's gold! I wanna say she was 16 at the time. I laughed quite a bit (hey, I didn't know the girl too well -- I'm ALLOWED to laugh. Just not in her general area). |
|
| Author: | StrongRad [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Musachan wrote: StrongRad wrote: This was funny... Then I read the "threatened to sue" part. It became hillarious! Junior chemistry class, so she was, what, 16, 17 years old? That's gold! I wanna say she was 16 at the time. I laughed quite a bit (hey, I didn't know the girl too well -- I'm ALLOWED to laugh. Just not in her general area). Actually, if parents threatened to sue because she was told there was no Santa Claus at 16, I think you're allowed to laugh in her general area, too. |
|
| Author: | Ninti [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Oh my gosh. 16 years old, and her parents threaten to sue over the existence of Santa? 
|
|
| Author: | Mikes! [ Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Kittie Rose wrote: I think there are certain rights that kids need to have that they don't, I really do. The Supreme Court's decision in Danforth v. Planned Parenthood of Missouri set an unchallenged precedent that constitutional rights don't magically appear at age 18. The Constitution, especially the 14th's equal protection clause, applies to any US citizen regardless of age. Unfortunately, not a lot of legislature likes to comply with this ruling.
|
|
| Author: | Kittie Rose [ Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yeah, it's not as if most rulings in the U.S. pay much attention to the constitution, anyway. I think this is because the constitution doesn't have a mention of capitalism in it, so it becomes "outdated" when corporations want to twist it around their fingers, but obviously it gets abused in other instances too. |
|
| Author: | Mikes! [ Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Kittie Rose wrote: Yeah, it's not as if most rulings in the U.S. pay much attention to the constitution, anyway. Okay, now you're just getting bogged down in MoveOn.org-style rhetoric put on by "progressives". The courts did pay attention to the Constitution. In fact, they took a very socially libertarian interpretation on the Constitution for a high court. But how is the second part even relevant? Yes, capitalism is a messed up system. Yes, business interests are more powerful than Joe Schmoe. But is this a discussion on Santa Claus. I was just giving you some cool information to use, but you aren't making sense with it.
I think this is because the constitution doesn't have a mention of capitalism in it, so it becomes "outdated" when corporations want to twist it around their fingers, but obviously it gets abused in other instances too. Kittie, you've got a great attitude, but you're just doing what they want you to do when you say things like that! C'mon now, actually shake some crap up! Learn about the activist work being done that addresses all these problems you're complaining about. Read some Thoreau, Chomsky and Emma Goldman! CrimethInc even! Get some better perspectives on the world, ones that aren't on the payroll of the Democratic Party. Maybe then you can get out there and help out with truly subversive and anti-capitalist stuff like Food Not Bombs. PM me, and I'll give you some starting points. |
|
| Author: | Kittie Rose [ Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I'm not american honey, I'm just constantly exposed to that particular culture thanks to globalisation and Sky News loving it. |
|
| Author: | Mikes! [ Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Ouch. Sky News... You're English? |
|
| Author: | Kittie Rose [ Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Close enough. |
|
| Author: | Cobalt [ Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Chomsky is a bloody lunatic. don't believe anything he says. and there's nothing wrong with capitalism, it's consumerism that's the problem. |
|
| Author: | furrykef [ Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I don't like the "lie" involved in telling one's children about Santa Claus, and I do remember I myself was distressed when I found out Santa Claus isn't real. I should point out I was not a normal child, though, and I had many strange behaviors as a child, so my experience probably isn't representative. At the same time I don't think it's right for a schoolteacher to do anything that would send a bunch of kids home crying. The schoolteacher might have a point if the children would go all their lives believing this "lie" and only she can set the record straight. That's obviously not the case: each child will learn there is no Santa when they're darn well ready to accept it. Why interfere with that process? I do understand the schoolteacher's point, that it is wrong to perpetuate a lie by presenting it as the truth. I can understand that. But the only alternative, as she discovered, is make half the class burst into tears. That's wrong, too. Kind of a no-win situation... so why not go with the one that keeps everybody happy? Anyway, this whole thread is pretty much deviating from the point of the original post... then again it's just easier to discuss whether or not it's wrong to perpetuate the myth of Santa Claus instead of discussing loss of faith at a young age... - Kef [this post edited to bowdlerize a D-word] |
|
| Author: | Schmelen [ Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I asked my dad straight out if Santa existed when I was seven or eight and he told me the truth, so I still respect and trust my parents. And it's true, when you believe in Santa, Christmas is so much better! |
|
| Author: | Hi Guys [ Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Why are we still talking about this? |
|
| Page 2 of 3 | All times are UTC |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|