Homestar Runner Wiki Forum

oh, sorry.



there are other organized religions than Christianity, though. have you looked into Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Baha'i? i don't specifically endorse any of those (well, i personally subscribe to Judaism because it makes the most sense to me) but wouldn't you want to investigate more religions than just Christianity before declaring all organized religion to be contradictory?



well, i'm not sure that was what SR meant.



if you mean those questions not merely rhetorically, but actually want answers to them, Judaism has two thousand years of commentary addressing those very issues as well as any others that you could possibly imagine. Judaism has always been about questioning, never taking anything for granted. religion should be a constant search for meaning. falling back on "faith" as an excuse to stop looking for the truth is a big mistake.

Ok, but where have you acquired (sp?) this faith, and why are you faithful?

On a bit of a different note, why is faith needed? For me, having faith in a god means disregarding logic that I've relied on all my life. I don't see why that is good, at least in my case.

Actually, I didn't say Christianity didn't make sense to me... I can see how you could read it that way. My bad.

What I mean was that I can see how people outside of the faith would say it doesn't make sense... Those things about your religion that make sense to you do so because of faith. If you took the "traditional" scientific approach, the might not make sense... I think we're basically agreeing on this, but the ability to put my real meaning into words just seems to escape me.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

you seem to be saying that all religion is inherently illogical and can only be accepted on faith? i don't accept that at all. it's not inherently irrational to believe something on faith only for lack of evidence, but it is inherently irrational to believe something despite all evidence to the contrary.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I have yet to see my religion disproven (or most other religions, for that matter), but there are those who feel it is illogical to believe a religion if there is no evidence to support those beliefs.
There are those who say that, since there is no "proof", that there is proof religion is false...
Abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence.

It pretty much sounds like we're agreeing, it's just your comment about "shutting off your brain" kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I hear that so often from "superior" athiests (the subset of athiests that feel they are mentally superior because they don't believe in "fairy tales"). Sorry about lumping you into that group, man.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

i agree, but there are religions that cannot be disproven because of lack of evidence, and then there are religions that can be disproven based either on evidence to the contrary or on the basis of being internally inconsistent. for example, i don't personally believe in Buddhism, but i wouldn't say that it's illogical to believe in Buddhism simply because there is not sufficient evidence for or against it. but i think that there is sufficient evidence against Christianity, both in physical terms (for the literalist interpretations, which i believe tend to be predominent) and in the sense of its being self-contradictory.



i'm not sure we are agreeing. but i didn't mean to offend you. and i was not offended by your comment, so don't sweat it!

I would agree. Faith does not mean we simply "turn our brains off" as you so eloquently put it. All I'm pointing out is that there are some truths that we understand by revelation which, by human standards, do not conform to our limited understanding or ways of thinking. Or, as Isaiah put it, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."


Go ahead.

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Ask and you shall recieve.

The reason I am not a protestant is that you guys have done a lot of the same things that Catholics done, and there is one different reason. That reason is intolerance. Protestants have a history of intolerance. Whether is be intolerance towards different religions or ethnic groups, protestants have no been fair towards other groups. The two biggest examples I can give are that of the treatment of Catholics in the UK and the treatment of African-Americans here in the US. In England after the Glorious Revolution, there were several acts passed by British Parlament that restricted the freedoms of Catholics in Ireland. These acts included, barring Irish Catholics from voting and gave the land to the Protestants. This was one of the reasons that the Irish Potato Famine was so bad. The Protestants took a large cut of the Irish potato crop and gave the rest to the Catholics for food. However when the Famine came around, there wasn't enough potatoes left after the English took their cut to feed the Irish, thus causing many to starve to death or immagrate to the US. Where we welcomed them with not so open arms.

Another instance of intolerance is right here in the US, specifically the South. I am talking about the treatment of African-Americans by Protestants. Since when is racial purity part of Jesus' teachings? Some how it seems that it became part of it some where after the Civil War. Actually it started before the war. Plantion owners would have the local minister come in and tell the slaves that God wanted them to be slaves. Yeah right. Then after the Civil War, and still to this day, the Ku Klux Klan thinks that it isn't right for African-Americans to worship the same God as them. So what do the do they burn, or in some cases blow up, black churches. I reject and dispise people and organizations that are intolerant towards other people.

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It's not, and never has been. And, to the best of my knowledge, I have never condoned anyone's treatment of Africans here in America. In fact, as I recall, the Missouri Synod has never condoned nor supported slavery here in the US. You might also want to note that it was Protestants who led the abolition movement to ban slavery. You seem to have left that out.

BTG, you seem very confused on the difference between what our faith actually teaches and the way some idiots have attempted to justify their evil deeds with their own perverted version of our faith. Do you honestly believe that all Muslims wish to destroy American cities by crashing airplanes into them?

BTW, I haven't gotten around to it, but I do have a new picture I wanted to post in the Post Your Pics thread: it is of me preaching at a prayer breakfast of an organization called Mission Mississippi. It's a Christian organization dedicated to healing rifts caused by racial division.

So have people done horrible things in the name of their religions? Absolutely. Does this mean that everyone who devoutly follows that religion (particularly those who are more intent on actually studying and living by its teachings) actually condone those atrocities? I think it terribly unfair (and intolerant) for you to lump all us Christians into the same category with the KKK.

But the ultimate question is this: did Jesus Christ die on that cross for you? Did he bear those horrid torments for your sake? Because ultimately, it's just going to come down to you and him; what other human beings may or may not have done will be of little consequence in that exchange.

I would also remind you of the story of St. Paul. Saul of Tarsus was a horrible man who traveled around the Palestinian countryside having Christians tortured and put to death. That is, until one day, the Lord Jesus himself showed up and turned this murderer into one of his greatest messengers. Do not be too swift to say what God can or cannot do with fallen human beings.

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not tryng to start an argument, but in my opinion HELL IS REAL

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Ultimate Answer: nope!

And exactly what proof do you have for your conclusion, Cobalt?

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That's not entirely accurate though. Although you're right to say that there were many discriminatory laws against Irish Catholics(beginning in the 17th century, under the protectorate of Oliver Cromwell, and carrying on until the early 19th century), it's not really true that Protestants caused the Great Famine by taking the potato crop for themselves. Actually, most of the potatoes grown in Ireland at the time were only eaten by the peasants who planted them, and their families.

Religion was one reason for the entrenching of divisions between the Irish and the Anglo-Irish Protestants. But I would say that it was plain old British imperialism and sheer economics that were the bigger problems. Like if you look at the causes for the Great Famine, it comes down to three main (non-religious) reasons.....

One is the Anglo-Irish landlords charging too-high rents to already impoverished tenants. The tenants then had to grow their own food – and they relied too much on the potato, because it cultivated better than other crops.

The second cause, though, came down to a bad custom amongst us Irish ourselves – that of land sub-division. This is where a father would give all his sons an equal share of his land, rather than give it all to the firstborn son. Eventually that meant that families' plots of land got smaller with each generation. And eventually, the plots got so small – and in some, the land wasn't very good – that the only crop they could cultivate was the potato. (And where I live, in Conamara, the land is so bad anyway that potatoes are the only crop that would grow with any degree of success.)

The third, then, is the potato blight fungus. When that wiped out the only source of food for the Irish peasant class, the Famine came with it.

But anyway...... I'm agreeing with Didymus on this one. It's not really fair to judge Protestantism based on the grievances of old and the actions of a few. There were some Protestants who misused their religion for their own end, yeah, but that's just human nature for you.

And as far as we're talking about Protestants in Ireland, I'm reminded of the many Protestants who championed the cause of Irish independence. Like Charles S Parnell, Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet, Lady Augusta Gregory, to name just a handful.

But toastpaint.

i'm afraid that your proposition is the one that needs proof. "some guy two thousands years ago did not die for my sins" is kind of the default position. however, my proof is that it makes no sense and is impossible and pointless. Christianity necessarily bases itself on Judaism, yet contradicts Judaism. therefore it's internally inconsistent, and therefore impossible. QED.

I don't agree with your assessment. At least in my own studies of the Scriptures, Jesus Christ is in fact the fullfillment of everything Judaism stood for.

But back to my original question: I wasn't asking you, I was asking BTG. The question I posed to him was essentially intended to encourage him to think about his own faith. Since you presumed to answer not only for him, but for everyone else, I felt it necessary to challenge you to prove your reason for doing so. And I do not feel you have even made a decent attempt at doing so.

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Yes.

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Thank you, BTG. The peace of the Lord, which surpasses all understanding, guard you and keep you.

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well, your studies of the scriptures have yielded drastically mistaken results. but that's fine. i'm confident that you're basically a good person, so what you believe is not ultimately that important.



yeah, you're right. i didn't think it was necessary to expend a lot of effort outlining all the reasons why Jesus couldn't possibly have been the messiah. because i know i'm right, and i don't think i could dissuade you from your beliefs no matter what, and like i said, it doesn't really matter much what you believe as long as you're moral anyway, so i figured it would just have been a waste of my time to go into serious detail on the subject.

Actually, that is entirely untrue. According to Jesus, it is his body and blood. He didn't say "This wine and this bread represent my blood and body" he said "This wine and this bread are my blood and body" but heck, Lutherans might beleive differently!

Also,

You must go more through the bible to figure that out. Actually, just a couple of words. "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" Jesus did not die. Actually, it even says in the bible that Jesus rose from the dead. And it means beleivers go to heaven and live forever, and that non-beleivers go to hell and go through eternal DEATH.

Also, hell is a place with out love. And life without love is the most horrible thing that could ever happen. People that just LIVE without love usually become Retarded or Die.

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that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

Now Cobalt, that is just plain disrespectful. Please don't do that again. Even if you disagree with someone's ideas, you shouldn't just call them stupid.

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i didn't call anyone stupid, i said that Snailmail said something really stupid, and i stand by it.

That's what he's saying. You could've said it a bit nicer than that.

Cobalt doesn't know how to be nice. He thinks his beliefs are right and that all of us Christian are stupid for believing in something that he doesn't. That in my opinion is really arrogant and ignorant.

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not true. i don't think all Christians are stupid at all, i just think that Christianity happens to be wrong. everyone thinks that their own beliefs are right, by definition, otherwise they wouldn't hold those beliefs, so you can't castigate me for thinking that the things i believe are true to the exclusion of things that contradict those beliefs. Christians think that i am wrong about my beliefs, and they're entirely within their rights to think that.

and i know perfectly well how to be nice. i just found the assertion that living without love causes people to "become retarded or die" to be so absolutely, appallingly ridiculous that i felt the need to express my opinion at the stupidity of the statement.

Ok, I didnt read everything above, because this is baisicly a straightforward answer to the main question (IS hell real).

This isnt a story that I just overheard, or read from some random source, because I know the missionaries im talking about here. As in, when not in Alaska preaching, they go to my church.
Ok...
Their names are Liz Ruff, and Berry Ruff. Berry's dad would make fun of him for being a christain, and deffinatly wasnt one. When Berry's dad died, (I dont know his name) he did go to hell. How do we know? He was one of the ones that the doctors got back. At first, he had a look of terror on his face, and couldnt talk. When he could, he said that there was fire, and demons, clawing at him. The FIRST thing he did when he could talk though, was accept God and become a christain. This isnt some far away story from some guy ive never heard of, I know the missionaries.

Quote from battlecry(awesome christain rally I just got back from) "Dont run from hell....but to God...."
Dont become a christain out of fear, do it for God. Am I saying that if you dont love God, dont try to become a christain? No. If you belive in him, then accept him into your heart. Thats all it takes. If you think that "oh I dont want to follow all the RULES...."
Well, as you do get tempted, you WANT to follow all of them, if you really love God.


Now that you have heard why hell is real....What about heaven?
He didnt come back, but my grandpa went to heaven. I never saw it, but when my mom came back from the nursing home, with him being dead, she was amazed. He had a look of pure astonishment, and happieness on his face. The doctor person, or whoever that was, asked what his religion was because of that look. Also, before this, he would look into the corner of the room, seeing something, then try and lift himself off the bed and reach twords it, then fall back down. Theres not much to what happened here, but its pretty darn cool.

Also, read the book 90 Minutes in Heaven, the guy that wrote it died, went to heaven, and came back. And obviously wrote a book about it

I just cant see how people dont belive, with proof like this right there.

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Sorry for the doulbe post, but just answering questions (and dont want a super long post). (note, still didnt read all of the posts, so sorry if im interupting something else, im just more for answering the main questions)

QUESTION:"If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get "born again" then I'd rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God."

ANSWER: Hell is a place of torture. If you went to lets say, a tortue chamber, would they room you with your best friend so you can have a more happy time? no, if anything they would torture the one you love in front of you.


QUESTION""How can you say burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair" for everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ? Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime. According to you, Christians, people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not. Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured. You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. This is not justice--this is insanity!"

ANSWER: God died the worst death for each one of us, and we dont have to be "bad" to go to hell. Every person will sin in their life, EVERY single one, we are all bad in a way.
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Not accepting someone that was tortured for you is not just. No, I dont understand why People will get tortured for eternity, I think its pretty crazy, but thats just another reason why im not God, making these desicions. Besides, its the devil doing the torturing, if he can make you not follow God, he wins and he gets you forever.

QUESTION:"Infinite punishment for finite crimes just doesn't seem just."

ANSWER: "Man does not get to heaven by works, but by God alone"
If you sin, God will forgive you. He wont say "oh, he just stole something, I guess he cant come to heaven!"

person 1: his life is a mess, he is into drugs, sex, stealing, even murders. He seems pretty bad, but then he becomes a christain. He gets rid of everything, and doesnt do any of that stuff anymore. But he still sins, and he still did those bad things in the past. He did the crimes.

person 2: This person is very nice, and would never hurt a fly. He never even commited a crime(by earths standards). He donates to charity, even goes to church every week, but doesnt belive in God.

You need God, not a good backround for your "application" to heaven. Person 1 goes to heaven, and person 2 doesnt.

QUESTION:"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? This seems hideous. You make God look like a monster worse than Hitler, not a loving Father Who would even die for His enemies!"

ANSWER:
God doesnt torture us, satan will. God wants you to come to heaven, and to him, not to get tortured. Yes, he would hate to see his children tortured. God is a loving father, who died for us all, he has no enemies.

QUESTION:"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity went there, how could you HONESTLY say that 'Love NEVER fails?' Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things." (I Cor. 13:8)

ANSWER: Love never fails. If you will go to hell, then you arent loving God. His love for you never failed, because he died on the cross for you. At any time he could have just gotton off the cross, but he loves us all so much, he stayed on until his death for the biggest sacrifice of all.

QUESTION:"If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished if in fact He died for my sins. But the Bible says the wages of sin is death which is exactly what Jesus did--died. So how can you say people will be eternally tortured in Hell? Is Jesus presently being eternally tortured in place of those who accepted Him as Lord?

ANSWER: When the Bible says "death" it is talking about going to hell. Just as when it says "life" it is talking about heaven. And Jesus did die, but on sunday he rose from the grave. After that Jesus went to heaven, but didnt die. He was brought up. (after he showed some people that he lives again, wont want to miss the looks on their faces!)

And when you say "If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished if in fact He died for my sins."
Jesus never sinned, so he didnt have to pay the punishment.
Back then, they would sacrifice an animal for each sin. So God sent his only son-Jesus, to die for our sins as the ultimate sacrifice. That sacrifice counted for every sin each one of us will ever make, he will always forgive you. In fact, we all did crucify him on that cross, so all our sins are forgiven.


Hope this helps

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that stuff is one of the major reasons why i see Christianity as being drastically impossible.

Read my post right above, I try my best to explain them.

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yeah, i know, that's what i was referring to as to the reasons i think Christianity is impossible.