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I was saved at 13, in the months following that experence I attended a church fairly often. I went to a local church for its youth night nearly every week I could go, 'till about a year ago. At first the reason I didn't go was because I couldn't, life just panned out in a way that I couldn't get to my local church every week. Then I started questioning why I worshipped in a group that constrained me so much in the first place, I didn't come up with good answer.

I'm now working under the thought that if I prefer to find God on my own and I'll go back to a church when I feel ready.

Has this happened to anyone you know? Or Yourself? I could use the input.

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

Something similar happened to me when I was in college, before I became Lutheran. I was really involved in this one church, but as time went by, I just started feeling like I didn't belong there. There were basically two cliques in that church: an older group that pretty much had all the authority, and a younger group that wanted to be very active. The pastor wanted to change the direction of the church, but the older culture didn't really support him. In time, he burned out and left.

Now where did I fit in all this? Well, for one, I didn't really fit with the older crowd. On the other hand, I really didn't agree with everything the younger group was trying to do (I often felt it was judgmental and deliberately subversive). The long and short of it was that it wasn't meeting my spiritual needs, and other than two good friends I had there, I kept feeling more and more like an outsider.

Thankfully, I had some good friends at college, and I was being spiritually fed there more than at church. Eventually, my old church split and collapsed, and at that time, I started going to a Lutheran church nearby (Ascension, Buckhead GA). It was something different than I had experienced before. Long story short, I found a place I belonged. Now, here I am nearly ten years later, a Lutheran Pastor.

Let me ask you a question: in what way did your old church group constrain you? Have you considered seeking out a different group? I wouldn't recommend withdrawing yourself from the worshiping community.

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First off: I havn't entirely withdrawn myself from the community, I still gather with friends from church and God enevitabally(sp?) comes up.

Basically they want the church to be my life, and I'm really not ready for that yet. I'm 15 going on 16, I've got a lot of stuff still to do before I commit myself to a church I see. I'd hate to be a person that's unhappy where they worshipping because they commited themselves too early.

The other part to the puzzle is the fact that I'm half Jewish, now while many Christians celebrate the fact that I'm partly Jewish and worshipping with them but I feel like I'm betraying half of my heritage also by mostly worshipping in Christian churches.

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

I'm not sure if this is helpful at all, but I'll toss it out there for you to consider. Have you ever been to a Messianic synagogue? Considering that Jesus and the Apostles were all Jewish, it would seem to me that being Jewish and Christian is not that much of a stretch. But there are some who don't see it that way, and of course, I can see where this might put you in a difficult place. But a Messianic synagogue might help.

Not that I'm trying to push you one way or another. I'm just hoping to help.

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Like a "Jews for Jesus" type of deal?

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

I'm not sure if this is helpful at all, but I'll toss it out there for you to consider. Have you ever been to a Messianic synagogue? Considering that Jesus and the Apostles were all Jewish, it would seem to me that being Jewish and Christian is not that much of a stretch. But there are some who don't see it that way, and of course, I can see where this might put you in a difficult place. But a Messianic synagogue might help.

Not that I'm trying to push you one way or another. I'm just hoping to help.

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You're not going to get very far by saying the same thing twice

I would say experiment with other denominations. Obviously there's never going to be a church you completely agree with, as being half Jewish is unique. If you can't go to church, though. just hold on to your faith and never forget what you believe in. Life will calm down, and you'll be able to go to church regularly again.

And before anybody asks, yes, I am considered Atheist, but if somebody really believes in something, then I'm not going to try and force them to think my way.

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this happend to me a few [s]days[/s] [s]days[/s] half years ago... the date was something something 2003, on a cold and grey Corpus christi morning, [s]another little baby child was born in the ghetto[/s], i attended a church service at a beautiful church. i kept going for a while, maybee a few weeks or so... then i just stopped going. now, several years later, my father has become a jehovas wittness, and is all talking about things like "ohh, well the bible says this" and "God says that" and all of that jazz, but thats not what i wanted to hear from him, i wanted to know what i should do about my problems, and he keeps telling em to turn to god. i always did, but that never really helped. the day i lost god was febuary 14 2005. on that day, i was placed in a center for teens who either have an eating disorder, tried to kill themselves, or who just needed some help. i was the second option. that day, the god in me died. and now, about a year later, im totally lost and basing my belifs on what a Science fiction writer wrote, and transformed it into my own church......funny, looking back on it al, i wish that one moment hadent happend, and maybee i wouldnt be where i am today.

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I very much grew away from the Christian church once I got to college...and I must say, it was extremely liberating for me. Once I got to college, I was able to look back on how I had been living throughout grade school--how society, my peers, and my family had all pressured me to try to be someone I'm not (namely, Christian and heterosexual, but the latter of those two is for another topic).

After a year in college, I was able to see much, much more of the real world than what had been spoon-fed to me throughout grade school. And I found that Christianity was not something that I believed in; as many Christians say that they know Christianity is right because they "know it in [their] heart[s]," I likewise know that Christianity is NOT right (for me, at least) because I feel it in my heart and in my very being.

So, realizing this, I did what I have a tendency to do whenever I try to get away from something: I went to the extreme and claimed myself an Atheist. It wasn't long, however, before I realized that I was STILL lying to myself, and that I knew that there was something spiritual or religious I had to believe in--something I was yearning for. Well, in the end, after a lot more searching, I have found myself to be extremely happy as an Individual Spiritualist--meaning, I have strong spiritual beliefs, but they do not come from any one religion; rather, they come from a combination of my own personal beliefs and convictions as well as various pieces of established religions such as Paganism, Buddhism, Shamanism, etc.

To sum it all up, I feel that various religions can help people achieve a connectivity with the spiritual realm by proffering different (although often similar) roads. I don't see any one religion as being "right" or "wrong," but merely guides, and not everyone can make the same use of the same guide.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

I once read a book that had one line that stuck out to me, it went like "Say a prayer each night, 'cause there may be a God after all", that's what I suggest to you. Don't turn your back fully on God 'cause it may just happen that one exsists.

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

That's kind of a misguided reason to pray... Kinda sounds like Pascal's Wager.

To me, you shouldn't pray because "there might be a God", you should pray because there is one. If you don't believe with all your heart, you shouldn't believe at all.

Of course, that's my opinion.

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If you can't fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

I never said that I don't believe in God--just that I don't believe in the Christian definition of God. I very much believe in a Creator, though my views on It are rather Deist.

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The meaning of life is 'bucket.'

FOR PONY!!!

I didn't say I base my whole life on it, I just liked it is all.

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

Drift on.

I was born Catholic, and went as far as Confirmation. But by that time I only did it to keep family happy. I had already realized I didn't really believe anything I was being told. By the time I had gotten to college, I had completely drifted away from the church and any belief in God. And the idea of believing and praying "just in case there is a God" seems rather rediculous to me, because my heart just wouldn't be in it.

As for you, just follow whatever path feels right to you. It just may take some time to figure out what that is exactly.

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Listen to the Black Crowes.

It's kind of weird. Most people think religion will "die out" if it's not passed on to children by their parents.

I'm kinda seeing the opposite here, given my own experiences as well. Amorican and Gidley both say they were raised Christian and held to it by their parents, but went atheist because it chafed on them. (Yes, I know Gidley came to Deism after a second evaluation, just saying) I've noticed a trend in this elsewhere--people raised as Christians, but going atheist or agnostic either because (1) they just didn't agree or (2) an act of rebellion against being forced into it.

On the other hand, I was never forced into being, or raised Christian. I've never been to church, yet I came to Christianity despite that. It is as C.S. Lewis himself said: "I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun rises--not only because I see it, but by it I see everything else." I don't know if not being forced into a religion has given me a different perspective or what, but I look at the world, I look at human concepts, and I see rational justification for God's existence.

And in my opinion--this is where my post gets relevant to the topic--I don't believe it's necessary to go to a church to be Christian.

Churches can be a great place for spiritual guidance and being with others who share your beliefs, but as far as I know, Jesus did say the known world is a Christian's 'church' so to speak--we're not required to, say, make a pilgrimage to a holy city like Muslims are commanded to.

That and there are those who go to church to treat it like a "sin express card." Sin, go to church to feel all better and forgiven, then go out and be immoral again. It's an abuse of what the church is there for, among other things.

Given that, I think it's misleading when surveys point out just how many religious people go to church and how often. I'd consider myself firmly Christian and my faith isn't getting shaken any time soon--despite that I've yet to be baptized.

So what I'm trying to say is--if you can find a new church or community to go to that fufills your needs, awesome. I just don't think it's required or necessary, so don't fret if you find yourself between a rock and a hard place there.

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Think of church as one of the "means of grace." I've used this term before, and it essentially means, "something that God has given us to do, not because they make him happy, but because through them, he gives himself to us." Baptism, for example, is not something we do to make God happy, but rather something he has given to us for him to work on us through. Other means of grace include Holy Communion, the Word, prayer (yes, even though we're doing the talking, it's like C. S. Lewis once said, "Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me."), worship, Christian fellowship, etc.

Now, the means of grace are gifts to us. But at the same time, I don't think it's a good idea to ignore or disdain those gifts. Does that mean that you should wholeheartedly jump into your present church and follow it unquestioningly? Only if it's LCMS Lutheran! [/joke]

Seriously, all church groups have their faults. And considering that all people have different personalities, it might even just be a matter of finding one that suits your personality. For example, before I became Lutheran, I developed an appreciation for antiquity. As a result, my taste in worship tends toward historical/liturgical. Contemporary worship just doesn't appeal to me (not that contemporary is bad, just not suited to my tastes). Me? I needed to find a church that had historical/liturgical worship, and I found that as a Lutheran.

Prof, I suggested messianic judaism because, as the best of both Christian and Jewish worship, it might help you to relate the two halves of your spiritual ancestry. That was one of the issues you said was bothering you. On the other hand, it might not. I don't know. But it might be worth a try. If you do, let me know how it goes.

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There are many that drift, the only way I have avoided it was to join several church related youth activities: retreats, Life Teen, going to adoration and praying the rosary. ANd I found that the deeper you may go and read about your faith the stronger your attachement to it will become. There are sevral books and speakers that I can suggest but only a few come to mind at present: Scot Hanh (speaker), Micheal O'Brien (writer), Michael W. Smith (singer) and any works by pope John Paul II. I particularily enjoyed Scot Hanh's talk on the theology of the body. Ill probably edit this later and try asking some more questions, I have quite a resource of information.


And for all other religions I can say only this: "The church and its fundementals are pure and withough error, but those who run it can be corrupt" Do not hate the church for its errors, learn from them.

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And not just the leaders, but also it's members. And perhaps "can be" is too weak. More like "are." Including myself. No, I'm no thief or con man, or anything of the sort. But I have my weaknesses and flaws, too. I keep making mistakes, even when I don't want to. I remember I was once talking to my supervising pastor at Lutheran Senior Services last year, and told him, "I sometimes wish it were possible for me to not make these mistakes," and he replied, "God could do that for you, but it would make your job too easy. Instead, he wants you to make mistakes so you can remember to rely on him."

Really, when you get right down to it, that's the case with all of us. That's one reason we need each other, so we can help each other deal with those mistakes we make, to help us turn to God, even when we feel like there's no way he could possibly want us. In short, we need a Christian community so that we can experience God's grace at work among his people.

Unfortunately, there are also Christians out there who don't quite get this. You make a mistake, they want to crucify you for it. Failing to realize their own need for God's mercy, they fail to show that mercy to others. It's unfortunate, and as strange as this may sound, it just goes to show that even they are in need of God's mercy. But it's also hard as crap to be merciful to them, even though they need it too.

But I digress. Toastpaint.

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How come luther was an excommunicat (just want an explanation before i continue)

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Martin Luther was excommunicated initially because he challenged the Roman Catholic theology of purgatory (it was no accident that Reformation Day was on All Saints' Eve). Through his own studies of Scripture, Luther came to understand that God's mercy is what enables us to be saved, not who we are or what we do (and most certainly NOT the purchase of Indulgences). But Luther's ideas not only challenged the popular theology of his day, but it also challenged many political and religious statii quo (any Latin scholars out there who can tell me if that's right?). The real reason for Luther's excommunication was more political than religious (specifically, the Emperor Charles V wanted him out). But once the excommunication was in effect, Luther had no choice but to continue his work in proclaiming the doctrine of divine grace, which has become the cornerstone of the Reformation.

One thing to keep in mind is that Luther never intended to rebel against the Roman Church, but rather to reform what he felt were errors in theology and practice. The Papal Bull (yep, it's "Bull" alright) left him no choice.

The actual history and theology behind Luther's Reformation are much more complex. This is a nutshell. For more information, check out The Smalcald Articles.

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But even through his love suffering occurs not as his choice but as a result of ours hence the need for purgatory, or else the entrance to heaven would eb almost too easy.

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But does that suffering occur in this life or the next? It seems to me, at least from my study of Scripture and my own personal experience, that purgatory takes place in this life. Purgatory for me was nearly failing seminary two years ago. While very painful, it was God's way of putting me where I needed to be so he could challenge me, to purge me of certain besetting sins, and to show me in a very clear way his unconditional love for me. In short, to put me in a place where I had to realize that my life was not my own. I was brought face-to-face with my need for him, even though I was made to cry out, "Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani?" before I could see it. If I were still a Baptist, I would have said it was my conversion experience, but as a Lutheran, I trust that the Lord has been present with me all my life, just in ways I could not always see.

Purgatory is nothing short of the sufferings of Christ at work in our own lives, joining us more closely with him in our own sufferings. As Jesus cried out, "Eloi Eloi" on the cross, so I have cried out "Eloi Eloi" in my own life. And yet, even in my accusing him of abandoning me, he is there with me, suffering the very same abandonment and despair. My pain is his pain, because he bore it on the cross for me AND WITH ME. And his pain is now my pain, because through my own sufferings, he continues to make me more fully his. This is a truth that I needed to see once again, and this discussion has shown it to me, for within the past week or so, I've been crying out, "Eloi Eloi" all over again. Once again, I am forced to acknowledge how helpless I am, only so I can turn to his cross, for only there can I find any hope, even for this life.

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But what of possible unconfessed sins that we have not suffered for, and for our choices that we have not usffered for, for not all earthly suffereing can equate our ammount of sinful behavior, and earthly suffering is usually used by god as a preperation for work in this world, not the nextand in no way related to our sinful behavior.

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Since Christ's sacrifice paid the price for ALL sins, then what's the point? You make it sound like the suffering we Christians endure is for God's benefit, not ours. That, btw, was the whole point of the Reformation to start with, the failure of the Roman Church to acknowledge that salvation is God's free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9), and not something we earn or deserve. We get this gift based on Christ's merit, not ours. That being the case, there is no need whatsoever for any afterlife suffering in purgatory for the Christian. In short, the Church of Luther's day had departed from the teachings of the Church Fathers (specifically St. Augustin), and Luther was attempting to put them back on the right track.

Furthermore, consider that not once in all of Scripture is there even a hint that the faithful departed are expected to endure a purgatory before entering God's eternal rest. My question would be, how come people even believe in a purgatory at all? And, a question that Martin Luther had in his day, if purgatory exists, and the pope has any power to release souls from there, then why doesn't he just empty the place out from the kindness of his heart? And how exactly does purchasing a piece of paper help to get Uncle Joe out of purgatory faster?

In conclusion, there is no biblical or theological reason to believe that such a place as purgatory even exists. If Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is sufficient to forgive our sins, and if God's absolution of us is genuine (1 John 1:8-9), then we need only trust that he will cleanse of all sins. And if we out of ignorance forget one or two in our confession to him, then all we can do is trust he will cleanse us anyway. But to suggest that God would send one of his beloved saints to suffer in purgatory for a jillion years just because they forgot to confess stealing a piece of candy when they were a little kid? That is not the God I know, who sent his own beloved son to die for us.

And didn't I recently read that the Roman Church was reevaluating this doctrine anyway?

And finally, this topic is already being discussed on another thread (the one labeled "Catholicism").

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If Jesus sacrificed himself to forgive ALL our sins then why are people still born into "origional sin"?

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RIP Nathan "Buz" Buzdor

Because they're not. Little children are incapable of sinning because they don't have the knowledge to sin against.

I beg to differ. Psalm 51, for starters. Romans 5 for another. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, there is far more reason to believe in Original Sin than reason to doubt it. And haven't you heard the old saying, "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse"? While I would concur that children are incapable of knowing the Law, this in itself does not exempt them from the corruption that is at work in them and in all human beings as a result of the fall. I would argue that, if there is no original sin, then it must at least be theoretically possible for any human being to live a perfect life. Experience and Scripture both testify that this is impossible, except for the one who was himself God Incarnate.

The reason original sin is still in the world is because Jesus' sacrificial death didn't magically remove the power of sin from the world. Death, human weakness, frailty, human fallability--all these things--are still at work in the present world. What we do have through Jesus' sacrificial death is forgiveness, cleansing, and healing from these things. But just like I said in a previous post, the reason God doesn't just strike us with flashes of light and make us perfect is because he wants us to learn to rely entirely on him, to learn to trust him despite our flaws and failures.

But our hope is that this condition will not last forever. There will come a time when we will be perfected and made completely whole. There will come a time when sin will no longer be a factor in our lives. When Jesus returns. Until then, we must realize we are entirely powerless on our own, and must rely on him alone for forgiveness and hope.

This is why he gives us the Means of Grace (the Word, the Sacraments, fellowship with other Christians, prayer, worship, etc.). These things are what we Lutherans like to call "a foretaste of the feast to come." While we do not receive perfectly in this age, we still do receive him through these means.

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Only because I'm unclear as to what your response was last time, what happens to infants who die and are not baptized?

Thanks.

I think you're both right. Lahi, I agree that children are unable to be held accountable for them). And Didy, I agree that all mankind is corrupted and sinful by nature, including children. Children would be held accountable for sins were it not for Christ's atonement, their own and Adam's as well. However, though we are subject to the effects of Adam's fall, we are not responsible nor are we punished because of Adam's fall. We would be were it not for the Atonement of Christ. From my understanding, it's not so much that children are incapable of sin, as it is that God will summarily forgive all their sins without need for repentance, because of the Atonement and because of their lack of understanding. Sin might not be the best word, though in the scriptures corruption and sin are used interchangebly. They are corrupted, though God in his understanding and mercy forgives them because of their lack of understanding.

And Didy, about your Ignorance of the law is no excuse, I believe that it will be no excuse if we have had sufficient opportunity in God's eyes to receive the law. If we have had no opportunities to receive the law in this life, I believe that he will give us the opportunity to accept or reject in the next life, dismissing our sins in ignorance from this life.

In that manner, those who choose to rebel against God still have great reason to be fearful, but God can show his infinite mercy to those who just didn't know any better.

Well, as far as I know, there used to be a philosophy of "Limbo" where they would go, and they would eventually be allowed into heaven. Recently, though, they've gotten rid of that philosophy and decreed that unbaptized babies are let into heaven immediately.

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