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| athiesm...why do people always try to "save" me? http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4020 |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:43 pm ] |
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That Wikipedia image is CG, not a photo. Besides, God is supernatural, so if there were a Big Bang, He would have been there to see it. As for your "spell it out in the stars" argument, God doesn't have to do that. He already revealed Himself through Christ. God's not lazy; He just reveals Himself in different ways. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:47 pm ] |
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But it took him BILLIONS of years to reveal himself by christ, to ONE little stinking planet! That's a little.. mediocre... |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:48 pm ] |
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You're a little...impatient... |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:51 pm ] |
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Besides, you think god sent a billion other sons to other planets to die for the sins of ET? |
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| Author: | Jitka [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:52 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: Besides, you think god sent a billion other sons to other planets to die for the sins of ET?
Some people think so. If we ever discover sentient aliens, the only way Christianity will continue to be viable is if they have a story very similar to that of Jesus. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:54 pm ] |
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King Nintenoid wrote: Besides, you think god sent a billion other sons to other planets to die for the sins of ET? No, He created Earth for the advance of life. King Nintendoid wrote: trying to prove god doesn't exist to people who haven't made up their mind yet usually succeeds within two tries. Really, I've converted people
It's been 3 now, & I'm still a Christian. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:54 pm ] |
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That's what I said earlier. But how do you justify the notion of humanity being unique and 'in gods image' if all the aliens claim the very same thing? |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: But how do you justify the notion of humanity being unique and 'in gods image' if all the aliens claim the very same thing?
Have they done that‽ |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:56 pm ] |
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What if they will? |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:58 pm ] |
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How would the aliens even be able to claim this? God revealed Himself to the humans on Earth. |
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| Author: | Eldiran [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:59 pm ] |
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Well, we wouldn't be unique if that were the case, but we'd still be in God's image. The "aliens" could be in God's image too, in that they would possess the ability to reason and make conscious choices. If we found another truly sentient race, then unless they had some similar experience with the Son of God, we would have to assume that either Christianity is bunk or that they would have to interact with the Son later on in time. Evil exists in the world because God gave us free will. God couldn't really give us free will if we didn't have the choice to do things wrong, so therefore: evil. Apparently God thought it worth the risk to give us the choice rather than to create a world filled with automata. Since I don't believe Hell is eternal, for me it doesn't come across as cruel for God to create the possibilty of evil. |
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| Author: | Jitka [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:59 pm ] |
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IanTheGecko wrote: King Nintendoid wrote: trying to prove god doesn't exist to people who haven't made up their mind yet usually succeeds within two tries. Really, I've converted people It's been 3 now, & I'm still a Christian. You seem pretty dang set in your ways, Ian. I don't think he meant you. KN wrote: But how do you justify the notion of humanity being unique and 'in gods image' if all the aliens claim the very same thing? Well, I suppose I could say that God, being all-powerful, could make himself look like anything he wanted. Or I could admit that I have no clue. Anyway, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. EDIT: Ian wrote: How would the aliens even be able to claim this? God revealed Himself to the humans on Earth.
How could you possibly know whether God reveals himself to people on other planets? We won't know till we meet aliens, if we ever do. *crosses fingers* |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:01 pm ] |
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God is alknowing. Therefore, he would've known that giving us free will would create evil. A loving god would not want evil to exist, and thus he should not have given us free will. The fact that he did means he's not vey nice
I sense certain egotistical arguments here, like "GOD ONLY LOVES US, ONLY SHOWS HIMSELF TO US AND TO NO ONE ELSE! AAAAARGH!". I find that very selfish. Why would god create those billions of other life forms without giving them a similar treatement? |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:07 pm ] |
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God doesn't want evil in the world. That's why He wants us to follow Him, so that we may be good. King Nintendoid wrote: The fact that he did means he's not very nice
So, you'd rather have no free will & be an automaton? |
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| Author: | Jitka [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:09 pm ] |
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I'd rather be an automaton during my short stay on Earth than roast in hell forever, I know that. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:18 pm ] |
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IanTheGecko wrote: God doesn't want evil in the world. That's why He wants us to follow Him, so that we may be good.
King Nintendoid wrote: The fact that he did means he's not very nice So, you'd rather have no free will & be an automaton? Of course not, but if free will is the cause of evil (as was earlier mentioned) god would not have given us free will, which leads to two conclusions: God is a prick and doesn't care about us OR God does not exist. I would not want to live in a world created by an evil apathetic god. Thank you |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 9:44 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: IanTheGecko wrote: God doesn't want evil in the world. That's why He wants us to follow Him, so that we may be good. King Nintendoid wrote: The fact that he did means he's not very nice So, you'd rather have no free will & be an automaton? Of course not, but if free will is the cause of evil (as was earlier mentioned) god would not have given us free will, which leads to two conclusions: God is a prick and doesn't care about us OR God does not exist. I would not want to live in a world created by an evil apathetic god. Thank you God is not evil & apathetic; sin is the cause of evil. Didymus wrote: Except that your so-called "free will" is bound by circumstance. All it would take would be for one single event in your life to have been different, and you might have made entirely different choices afterwards. So here's how it goes:
Genetics + Family Background + Education + Life Experience + Divine Intervention = The Choices You Make. As you can see from the above equation, change any single one of these aspects, and your choices are changed. Now you could argue that some part of the human psyche does contribute to the selection of certain choices, but it cannot do so without being informed by all the other aspects of the equation. (For example, if presented with a choice between a pizza and a bag of tacos, your family background will influence your decision, even if you don't realize it). My conclusion: Free Will = Very No. (or at the very least, human will is never ENTIRELY free). |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:00 pm ] |
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Rrrkay... I didn't actually mean free will didn't exist, I just pointed out that if evil is a result of free will, god wouldn't have allowed free will to be. Meh, I have free will. *shifty* MORE THEN YAH! *points* |
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| Author: | Eldiran [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:08 pm ] |
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I think a point I made earlier wasn't noticed, so... Evil exists in the world because God gave us free will. God couldn't really give us free will if we didn't have the choice to do things wrong, so therefore: evil. Apparently God thought it worth the risk to give us the choice rather than to create a world filled with worhtless automata. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:18 pm ] |
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Kinda begs the question, one I never seem to get the answer to: WHY DID GOD CREATE EVERYTHING? |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:31 pm ] |
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http://www.mlife.org/God/universe.htm wrote: Just as a skillful artist manifests his talents through his works of art, in the elevated sense, so the Owner of this universe, simply to manifest the Might and Omnipotence of His Creativity, created the universe.
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:26 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: God is alknowing. Therefore, he would've known that giving us free will would create evil. A loving god would not want evil to exist, and thus he should not have given us free will. The fact that he did means he's not vey nice ![]() Considering that this argument has already been answered by Christian thinkers hundreds of times, I'm actually rather surprised you would pose this as an argument. Here's the problem: if God created man without the possibility of a fall (as stated elsewhere, I'm not entirely convinced "free will" is the final answer to that problem, but I digress), if God created man without the possibility of the fall, then there are only two possibilities: 1. create man as an automaton, a doll if you will, with no capacity to love at all. 2. not create man at all. Neither of these options demonstrates that quality of God we call love. Remember that movie The Stepford Wives? (I remember the original, which was more horror/suspense). The point is, if the object of your love can only correspond to your ideas of perfection, can that in any way be called love? Or for a better example, there was an episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent where a man was kidnapping women, then drilling holes in their heads, effectively lobotomizing them into dolls. But in the end, he realized that what he was doing was not love, nor was their mindless obedience to him anything similar to love. That's my point. If mankind were mindless automatons, could their relationship toward God be considered at all love? The other option, to not create mankind at all, would not demonstrate love at all. The final option, to create man with the possibility of falling into evil, I would contend, most highly demonstrates true love. In fact, God loved mankind so much that he allowed mankind to become completely unloveable, so that he could love mankind anyway. As Scripture says, "For a good man, one might dare to die, but God demonstrated his perfect love in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." So there you have it: to allow mankind to fall into evil and then to perform an act of perfect self-sacrifice in order to redeem fallen humanity. That is the love of God, not that he wouldn't allow evil to exist, but that he is patient, even with evil, in order that he might redeem rather than destroy. And that's why the Cross is so central to my understanding of God's love. It is in the Cross that God himself endured the greatest of evils so that he might demonstrate the highest of loves ("Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay his life down for his friends."). And it was right there in the fall - the promise of redemption. Before God even created mankind, he already had the Cross as his objective, to perform a perfect act of self-sacrifice in order to redeem. So here's my point: (1) to create mindless automatons is not a demonstration of love , (2) to not create does not demonstrate love, and (3) to create mankind with the possibility (might I say, reality) of the fall demonstrates the highest love, because it is to show love even when that love is not returned. Quote: I sense certain egotistical arguments here, like "GOD ONLY LOVES US, ONLY SHOWS HIMSELF TO US AND TO NO ONE ELSE! AAAAARGH!". I find that very selfish. Why would god create those billions of other life forms without giving them a similar treatement?
I'm not sure if you're referring to aliens or animals or what here. The subject seems to be touched a little in this thread, though this really isn't the place for it. But to answer, who's to say those other creatures are in need of redemption? If there are aliens, we need not assume they are tainted with the same sin that taints our race. For a good book on that topic, read Out of the Silent Planet. On the other hand, if you are referring to other human beings who have not come to know Christ, then the essential problem is that, it is not that revelation has been withheld by God, but rather that it has been ignored by humanity. The Cross still stands at the center of human history, a testimony to both God's wrath and His love. "Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that all who look to him might be saved." But, just like with Upsilon before you, I suppose you expect God to reveal himself in a way that is perfectly acceptible to you. In other words, you want God to meet you on your terms rather than his. But it doesn't work that way. God paid the ultimate sacrifice on the Cross; to expect, or demand, that he choose to reveal himself differently is essentially to reject his sacrifice as not good enough. I imagine that, were that me, I'd be extremely angry with anyone who said to me, "I don't give a crap about your sacrifice." As for the question of creating, I imagine that if you were almighty omnipotent and whatnot, and you didn't do anything with that power, you'd probably get awfully bored after an eternity or two. |
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| Author: | ModestlyHotGirl [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:29 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: But he knows IF we will choose. And he won't do -CENSOR'd!!- about it
![]() Some god King Nintendoid, please watch your language. Luckily, our filter took care of whatever it was you had typed, but that doesn't mean it's okay. We understand that, especially in R&P, things can get heated, but we prefer that users debate in a civilized way, rather than resort to nasty language. And... toast paint. |
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| Author: | Didymus [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:54 pm ] |
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Won't do *** about it? What about the Cross? That's a pretty hefty something in my book. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:58 pm ] |
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Bravo, Didy-mao! KN was trying to convert me to atheism.
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| Author: | Dark Grapefruit [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:42 am ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: God is alknowing. Therefore, he would've known that giving us free will would create evil. A loving god would not want evil to exist, and thus he should not have given us free will. The fact that he did means he's not vey nice
![]() For someone who does not even believe God exists, you seem to know a lot about what he wants and does not want. I think Didymus' post is a rather eloquent refutation of the classic Problem of Evil. Also, what is with this trying to "convert" people to atheism? First off, atheism is not a religion but a lack of one, so you can't convert someone to it. Second off, it's pretty hypocritical, since you seem to hate it so much when Christians try to convert you. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:01 am ] |
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Sadly, nothing bad ever comes out of having NO religion, as opposed to having one >.> <.< |
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| Author: | ed 'lim' smilde [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:47 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: Sadly, nothing bad ever comes out of having NO religion, as opposed to having one >.> <.<
well, most people think it's the other way around. People won't convert to atheism just because something good comes out of it. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:00 pm ] |
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I blame fundementalist propaganda
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| Author: | The Experimental Film [ Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Well now. |
King Nintendoid wrote: Sadly, nothing bad ever comes out of having NO religion, as opposed to having one >.> <.<
Huh. So you wouldn't think Hell is "bad"? |
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