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| athiesm...why do people always try to "save" me? http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4020 |
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| Author: | Smorky [ Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:28 pm ] |
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They were working fine until you came along. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:30 pm ] |
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No Smorking wrote: They were working fine until you came along.
Pardon me, but wouldn't that mean that this thread, untill that time, only contained posts by people who agreed on one thing: god exists? Yeah, I can keep a religion thread going like that too 
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| Author: | Smorky [ Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:33 pm ] |
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That's not what I meant. I meant that the people before respected each other, debated with each other nicely even when they disagreed, and didn't think they were better than everyone else. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:50 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: IanTheGecko wrote: In a nutshell, sin is doing anything against God. If you're not saved, why do you deserve God's love if you go against Him? Interesting. If I were to do anything against god, I would first have to believe in him. Since I don't believe in the feller, I can hardly do anything against him. God is good and God creates good. But a thing can never be innately bad unless there is a good counterpart from which it deviates. God created life and has called it precious; therefore murder is wrong. There is no Dualism in our universe-this is not a battle between two equal and opposite opponents. God is infinitely strong, wise, and powerful, but Satan is one of God's creations and can never reach that level. |
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| Author: | Eldiran [ Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:48 am ] |
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"Interesting. If I were to do anything against god, I would first have to believe in him. Since I don't believe in the feller, I can hardly do anything against him." From God's point of view, failing to believe itself is something against Him. It's not like God is going to dislike you or want to punish you because you don't recognize his existence; when you do something "against" Him you are merely distancing yourself from the gifts He has to offer. In short, He's just trying to help you. "(ie: biology becomes impossible to teach. SOmething that doesn't actually happen here, but I know United States schools have this very.... strange way of teaching evolution)" The theory of evolution is not necessarily contradictory to Creationism. It is said he created the universe in six days... well, he was creating the sun during that time, right? How long were these "days"? There is no way of measuring it. They could just as easily have been millenia as days. "Lets hypothesize that god exists. Say I do something that totally pisses god off, and I go to hell when I die. Well, you spend a lot of time in hell. Actually, you spend all eternity there. Isn't that a bit... long of a punishment for a man who lived less then a century? A good and honest god would not stand for such cruelty!" I myself find it hard to believe that Hell could be eternal. I'm not eloquent enough to explain it, but if you really want to understand my point of view, then you should read C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce". In fact, if you want to understand why I believe as I do about Christianity, you should read Lewis' "Mere Christianity". 'S a great book. Anyways. Mm... yeah, I really can't think of any way to express my opinion. Probably due to the fact that I am not certain about how Hell or Heaven functions, seeing as I'm not currently dead. ...I think. Moving on! "To answer your question: they do this because even though you are less of a person to them (according to SOME interpretations of the bible), you are still a sad sob who is going to burn for all eternity" This interpretation is rare amongst those I know of, so please be careful that you don't assume this is the case. The reason most Christians try to save those around them is purely goodwill. As cheesy as it may sound, they want to give you eternal life and happiness. Hopefully this should help answer any questions you might have. P.S. Sorry for the lack of coded quotage, but I found it much easier to copy and paste. Yeah, I'm lazy. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:57 pm ] |
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Bertrand Russell wrote: Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless.
This man was an athiest... 
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:52 pm ] |
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But he doesn't really care it's meaningless, now does he? |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:24 pm ] |
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Apparently he does, if he brings up that point. Since Mr. Russell did not, he found no purpose in life. How sad. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:18 pm ] |
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If we're going for quotes, I'll add my two cents: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God" ~ Psalm 14:1 "The fool says in his heart: 'There is no God.' The Wise Man says it to the world." ~ Troy Witte The one thing sadder then having no purpose in life is your purpose in life being trying to find the purpose of life. *bows* |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:28 pm ] |
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How so? It's so simple. As Rick Warren explains in The Purpose-Driven Life, the meaning of life is to simply fulfill God's plan for your own life. There's also the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19-20 wrote: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Hoe het dat zo? Het is zo eenvoudig. Zoals Rick Warren binnen het "Purpose-Driven Life" verklaart, moet de betekenis van het leven het plan van de God voor uw eigen leven eenvoudig vervullen. Er is ook de Grote Commissie. Mattheüs 28:19-20 wrote: Ga er daarom op uit om alle volken tot mijn discipelen te maken. Doop hen in de naam van de Vader en van de Zoon en van de Heilige Geest. Leer hen altijd te doen wat Ik u heb gezegd. En vergeet dit niet: Ik ben altijd bij u, tot het einde van de tijd.
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| Author: | Eldiran [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:31 am ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: The one thing sadder then having no purpose in life is your purpose in life being trying to find the purpose of life. *bows*
It'd probably be sadder not to search for purpose at all. I actually think that if one spent their life trying to find purpose, it would be quite admirable. *shrugs* |
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| Author: | racerx_is_alive [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:55 am ] |
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Eldiran wrote: King Nintendoid wrote: The one thing sadder then having no purpose in life is your purpose in life being trying to find the purpose of life. *bows* It'd probably be sadder not to search for purpose at all. I actually think that if one spent their life trying to find purpose, it would be quite admirable. *shrugs* It could also be argued that if a person spent their whole life seeking purpose, but never thought that they found it, they had a wasted life. I think at one point you would find it a fulfill it. 
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:37 am ] |
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IanTheGecko wrote: How so? It's so simple.
As Rick Warren explains in The Purpose-Driven Life, the meaning of life is to simply fulfill God's plan for your own life. There's also the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19-20 wrote: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Sorry, but that sickens me to a great extent. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:35 pm ] |
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Why, did you expect some big, long explanation? Well, pardon me for not copying & pasting an essay. We're here because God loves us & created us; He has a plan for each & every one of us. Our purpose in life is to find that plan, & then fulfill it. Maybe I'm not getting through to you, KN. Here's what I just said in words you would understand: Waarom, verwachtte u één of andere grote, lange verklaring? Goed, gratie me voor het kopiëren van en het kleven van geen poging. Wij zijn hier omdat de God van ons houdt en ons creëerde; Hij heeft een plan voor elke en elke één van ons. Ons doel in het leven is te vinden dat vervult het plan, en dan het. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:49 pm ] |
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Thank you for that butchered piece of Dutch 
I would like it if you did not involve the 70% of the world who does NOT believe in your god in your 'plan', plsthanxors. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:53 pm ] |
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Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean that there's a plan in your life, a purpose. Geez, talk about misguided. Or should I say non-guided? |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:38 pm ] |
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It's called free will, Ian |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:40 pm ] |
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God gives us free will so we make the wise choice to follow Him. Not only has God always known what choices you will make tomorrow, but actually chose what you would choose. That is, they believe, by virtue of His foreknowledge He knows what will influence your choices, and by virtue of His omnipotence He controls those factors. it does not imply that God chose certain people to receive salvation and the rest have no chance of salvation, but rather, He knows that not everyone will choose salvation, and He specifically knows who will and who won't. The Bible says of God, "...God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3-4, NIV). So, basically, we do have a basic free will, but it's our own choice whether we want to receive salvation. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:42 am ] |
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But he knows IF we will choose. And he won't do crap about it 
Some god |
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| Author: | The Experimental Film [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | I guess. I'm not good at this kind of thing. |
Because he knows that if we choose to not follow his commandments and the guidelines (for lack of a better word) he has placed, we don't deserve to go to the paradise he has created for us. What kind of god would he be if he let his children do absolutely whatever they wanted, and then still accept them into heaven even if they never asked for forgiveness? Although I myself believe that Hell is not completely eternal, though it probably does last an unbelievably long time. I think the reasoning for this is that being forgiven is as easy as asking for it. If you can't truly and faithfully ask God to forgive you for your sins, then you probably deserve to "burn in Hell" for a while. But of course, this all comes from the mind of a fourteen-year-old who really doesn't know that much about religion. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I guess. I'm not good at this kind of thing. |
The Experimental Film wrote: Because he knows that if we choose to not follow his commandments and the guidelines (for lack of a better word) he has placed, we don't deserve to go to the paradise he has created for us. What kind of god would he be if he let his children do absolutely whatever they wanted, and then still accept them into heaven even if they never asked for forgiveness?
A nice god. |
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:09 pm ] |
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You think God is NICE? All the time? Adam & Eve chose not to follow God, & they were expelled from Paradise. Therefore, why should we spend eternity in Paradise with God if we choose not to follow him? We don't deserve what God gives us, but He loves us enough to give them to us anyway: it's grace. |
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| Author: | Eldiran [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:33 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: The Experimental Film wrote: Because he knows that if we choose to not follow his commandments and the guidelines (for lack of a better word) he has placed, we don't deserve to go to the paradise he has created for us. What kind of god would he be if he let his children do absolutely whatever they wanted, and then still accept them into heaven even if they never asked for forgiveness? A nice god. The commandments aren't simply rules that are set because God felt like it. They are directions for running the human machine. Humans cannot acquire true happiness without obeying these. Following the commandments is not something we do to earn a reward; learning to follow them is itself part of the reward. In other words, we cannot recieve the gift of God's grace unless we are willing to. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:03 pm ] |
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Yeah, but dudes.. you're talking about it like it's the ONE AND ONLY UNDENIABLE TRUTH[/evengelist]. You don't KNOW this for sure and you'll most likely never know. The fact that you all keep jammering about god this god that is what makes us atheists feel uneasy |
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| Author: | The Experimental Film [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Sounds right. |
King Nintendoid wrote: The fact that you all keep jammering about god this god that is what makes us atheists feel uneasy
And the fact that you keep jammering on about how God doesn't exist and how if he does he's a crappy god is what makes us Christians feel uneasy. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:07 pm ] |
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Sadly, that's not what this thread is about
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:07 pm ] |
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How do you know that the fact that there is no God is the undeniable truth? You have faith in no God; I have faith in Christ. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:09 pm ] |
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'Faith in no god'. I like that one. The nice thing about having faith on NO god, rather then in one or more gods, is that YOU can prove you are right, and theists can't prove you are wrong. The other nice thing is that YOU can prove theists are wrong, but they'll disagree with you. And it goes on and on
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| Author: | IantheGecko [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:11 pm ] |
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King Nintendoid wrote: The nice thing about having faith on NO god, rather then in one or more gods, is that YOU can prove you are right
OK, then do so. |
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| Author: | King Nintendoid [ Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:27 pm ] |
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The problem is, theists (some more then others) won't believe me because they always argue from the note that there IS a god. Just between you and me: it's good practice for an atheist to every once in a while construct theories from that very same note that there IS a god. Sadly, to me theories constructed using this notice seem equelly weak as a theist's arguments. To prove god doesn't exist I would have to tell you people "stop thinkin as christians, start thinkin "there's this god guy". It helps, and also prevents christians, muslims, jews, mormons, hindu's and (*laughing*) scientologists from attacking each other. Now that we're there, think for a sec that it's completely impossible for a being existing PRIOR to the creation of the universe, as no matter exists yet for that being to consist of. Argueing that this being is exempt from such laws is like saying that being doesn't exist at all. Saying "then what about that big bang thing?". Here is a nice image from Wikipedia to comment on this. As you see, the universe came forth from this little dot (the singularity), and as physicists all agree these days, everything we know and love about the llaws that dictate how matter behaves mean NOTHING in one of those things. Because of this 'yeah.. anything can happen in there' theory, it isn't necessary for any matter to exist prior to this event, other then the singularity, which isn't matter. So there is a very big difference regarding the question "what was there before the universe was created?" from a scientific and a theist stand point. Secondly, if god knows everything (he did give us free will, BUT knows what we're going to do anyway), he will have known when he created the universe, that I would be typing this. Since he's had sooo much time to create evidence, why isn't it there right now? God could've easily arranged a bunch of stars to spell out the words "God is here, dawgs" or something. The fact that god was either too lazy or unable to do this would, for me, mean that he isn't actually worth worshipping. A god not worth worshipping essentially doesn't exist. Evil. Lets talk about evil. I'm going to keep this very short: The problem of evil arises from the supposition that a perfectly good god would not have created a world containing evil, or would not permit its continued existence in the world, and that an omniscient and omnipotent god should be able to arrange the world according to his intentions. Since evil manifestly exists, it would seem that a god intends it to exist. Therefore such a god is either not perfectly good, not omniscient, or not omnipotent. With the further premise that if a god exists, it must be perfectly good, omniscient, and omnipotent, one can conclude from the existence of evil that no god exists. - Wikipedia (I got tired, and I'm not an omnipotent diety, but this is the theory I had in mind). You will now counter this, I suspect. To me, your arguments will seem entirely illogical. Even if I think, just for a wee sec, that god exists. Thinking that doesn't make the arguments I've read here any more logical. If this is because god isn't logical, I direct ye to Upsilon's post regarding god and logic. Attempt to prove the non-existance of god to theists #534534535 (trying to prove god doesn't exist to people who haven't made up their mind yet usually succeeds within two tries. Really, I've converted people) |
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