Homestar Runner Wiki Forum
http://forum.hrwiki.org/

Are all Non-christians Going to Hell?
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2590		 Page 8 of 13
Author:  Upsilon [ Fri May 13, 2005 5:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jimmie Johnson wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
Didymus wrote:
Quote:
First of all, to allow for the fact that it is God himself who puts the infidel in danger in the first place, the analogy needs to state that the person who threw you the life preserver is the same person who pushed you off the boat.

God didn't push anyone off the boat. We jumped off ourselves. Trying to blame God for human failure again. Let me make this clear in case you missed it: God is not the one responsible for human failure; humans are.


Human failure? Okay, I don't claim to be perfect, but I do the best I can. All things considered, I don't often do bad things. And none of what I do is ever that serious. And when I go wrong, I patch things up, I apologise and do what I can to set it right. This is the life story for billions of people in the world - the billions of people who, you're saying, are justly being sent to Hell for choosing the wrong belief. Now, some humans can be immoral dastards, but you can't blame the whole lot of them for something a fraction of them have done. And you certainly can't (as my understanding of Christian doctrine goes) class the fact that two people ate a forbidden fruit 6,000 years ago as a failure for all of present-day humanity.

I wasn't even referring to human failure in the first place. The reason why it's necessary for Mr X to have pushed you off himself is that Hell is an arbitrary and unjustified consequence of not turning to God. It is not a natural consequence, and if it is then that is only because God himself made it so. If he wanted to, God could install everybody into Heaven immediately; the fact that he doesn't indicates that he's to blame.


Reread the analogy. No one pushed you off the boat. You simply fell out, along with the rest of us.


Reread my post: "I wasn't even referring to human failure in the first place." I was referring to Hell itself. Forbidden fruit or none, there is no reason why God is in any way obliged to send everyone who doesn't believe in him to Hell forever. He just does.

If you like, the alleged innate human failure can be represented in the boat analogy as wearing a hat (say everyone on the boat is wearing a hat). And being a good Christian is represented by wearing a white hat (say about a third of the people on the boat are wearing white hats). Now, if you choose to wear a hat that's not white onto the boat, do you think it's a logical consequence that you should be pushed into the water by Mr. X, the only one without a hat? No, nor do I.

The fact that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit apparently gives God the right to push us all into the water, unless our hat is white. Do you think that makes sense?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for whether you see the life preserver or not: it's not that the life preserver is invisible, but the fact that you cannot see it. The blindness is not his fault.


If I can't see it, it might as well be invisible. And as to whose fault the blindness is, well, it certainly isn't mine. And I don't see how you can claim that it isn't God's fault that he's never made himself known to me. There's nothing I can do about that.


Then it's time to know Him. No time to second guess His love.


...dear, dear. Do you think my opinion will be swayed by a sentimental Christian pop song?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe it's the fallen condition of mankind that makes it so, or maybe it's stubborness (i.e., a refusal to open your eyes and look for it).


You think I stubbornly refuse to seek it?


Yes, we do.


Well, thank you for completely ignoring the rest of that paragraph to give a trite and frankly offensive answer to the first sentence.

Since you paid it no attention the first time, I'll repeat it: "In case you aren't aware, I spent the first twelve years of my life as a practising Christian. If my efforts to find it had ever proved successful, I wouldn't be arguing the case for atheism right now. I've never found, but it's not for lack of seeking."

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
While analogies are always imperfect in some way, in this case, you've essentially taken the analogy and tried to make it God's fault that you will not take hold to his life preserver, even going as far as blaming him for the fact that you are not in the boat. Trying to blame God for the fallen human condition is like trying to blame the jewelry store owner for his store being robbed.


Perhaps I can't blame God for that. But can you blame me?


He wasn't blaming you.


Well, God certainly is. Along with the other 4 billion non-Christians in the world.

Quote:
As it says in the lyrics I linked to above, "You know that even if you were
the only one He died for,
that means only your sins drove the nails."

It was all of humanity, not just one.


Ah, so you think that the small amount of sin* I produce warrants eternal torment? Whereas the amount of sin you perform (which, I expect, is largely equal) doesn't count simply because of your own theology? Yeah, that sounds fair. If it was all of humanity, why are only the infidels punished?

*I'm not trying to be arrogant or holier-than-thou here. It just seems to me that I don't do much that could be reasonably called "bad". It's the same for the majority of people on Earth, for you and me and Didymus. There are very few actually malevolent people in this world, and I don't count myself among them.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But in any case, blaming God for the fallen state of humanity doesn't really do much to change that fallen state. Claiming that God pushed you out of the boat and threw you an invisible life preserver doesn't help you back into the boat, now does it?


No, but it makes God seem a lot less benevolent and a whole lot less plausible.


You might want to read the lyrics I linked to in this post.


I've read them. They don't even address the billions of infidels who Jesus Christ is sending straight to Hell, so they don't contribute much to this discussion.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Oh, so I'm not allowed to tell you that you don't know God, but you're allowed to tell me that I'm consciously refusing him?
You can try to tell me I don't know God if you want. It's just that I'm not at all likely to believe you.


Fair enough. You don't know God. ;)


Actually, from what I've seen, you don't and Didymus does, if you take this from a one-on-one debate (even though I'm helping out with Didymus here, along with a lot of others who defended the Christian view.


Oh, come on, it was a joke. Look, I used a winking emoticon and everything.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for your refusing him? From my observation it doesn't seem to matter whether you are doing so consciously or not; the fact is you are headed in the opposite direction from where grace and mercy are available. Is that your intention? Maybe not, but it is the reality.


Well, it's certainly not my intention. And your word that it is the reality will not suffice.


Then look at the Word that litters the Bible. Look at Jesus' Word. Look at the Word that belongs to God Himself.


The word on the page of this book I own doesn't suffice either.

Didymus wrote:
I don’t think I ever used the term "justly," I only indicated that it was a reality, whether just or not. I don’t like the idea of people going to hell any more than I like the idea of people drowning at sea, but it is a reality.


Well, do you believe that your god is just? Do you love your god? If so, I wonder how. I don't see how I could love someone who does that sort of thing.

Quote:
We have a word for this: COERSION. Yes, God could force everybody into heaven if he wanted to. But then, if he did, would heaven be truly heaven? I find it interesting that, what most people detest about Inquisitors, Crusaders, and Muslim terrorists, you actually WANT God to do: force people to accept him for eternity, whether they want him or not.


Oh, all right, if you want to fiddle around with technicalities: he could let everybody into Heaven (like anyone would refuse).

And whatever you do, don't respond by saying that God gives us all the choice between Heaven and Hell, because we've been over that a gillion times.

Quote:
No. Trying to blame the store owner for the robbery committed against him again, I see.


Actually, no. I'm trying to blame the store owner for taking a shotgun and filling everybody he sees full of lead because of the robbery committed against him. Hell, not human failure.

Quote:
God did not create men to be sinners; he created them to be saints.


Isn't God supposed to be omniscient? If God is omniscient, surely he would have known that the humans he created to be saints would turn out as sinners. So why did he bother?

Quote:
Get this through your head: HELL EXISTS BECAUSE OF HUMAN FAILURE. Period.


Nope. Hell exists because God decided he needed a place to send everyone who didn't fit in with his worldview for ever and ever. Human failure is not the reason why Mahatma Gandhi is going to Hell, and God could clearly prevent that if he cared at all.

Quote:
As I have said like a jillion times every jillion seconds, hell is first and foremost a state of existence apart from God.


That or fire and brimstone; it makes no difference. Eternal torment is eternal torment, whatever form it takes.

Quote:
It is if you don’t open your eyes.


Who says my eyes aren't open?

Quote:
I’m not blaming anyone, just stating facts. There’s lots of people born into this world without sight, and who knows who’s fault it is when it happens? But it does not change the reality: blindness is blindness, no matter whose fault it is.


Right. So here's a good party game for any deity in need of amusement: fill a room with people, stick a pink sticker on whoever you want, then kill everyone with a pink sticker. Because pink stickers are pink stickers, no matter who put them there.

Blindness is blindness, but if we shoot every blind person at birth, people are going to complain.

Quote:
He has made himself known to you: through me. As a servant of God’s Word, he has spoken to you through me. He has also revealed himself to you through the Scriptures and the Holy Christian Church. To argue that he hasn’t revealed himself is essentially to ignore this.


I'm ignoring nothing. You might as well argue that Allah has revealed himself to me through the Qur'an, the Muslim religion and all Allah's servants across the globe. Clearly, Allah and Christian God cannot both exist, so there's a flaw in the reasoning somewhere.

Quote:
The problem seems to be that you want him to reveal himself in a way that suits you, not as he truly is. That is where the problem lies. You want a god that fits your way of thinking; the true God transcends human thought.


It's not so much that I want him to reveal himself in a way that suits me. It's more that I want him to reveal himself.

Quote:
But I wonder what it was you were looking for. What was it you hoped to find? According to you, you simply woke up one day and said the Bible didn’t make sense to you. Other than that, you really haven’t told us much about your spiritual journey, so I can’t really comment on it. Why is it that you up and determined that you couldn’t trust either the Scriptures or the Holy Christian Church?


Well, to say that I woke up one morning and went against the faith I'd been practising for twelve years straight beforehand is not quite true. In truth, a few months before my change, I'd gone through a long period of doubt. It wasn't a rash decision; you can't be rash about this sort of thing.

My original argument with the Bible was Leviticus, also known as the Book Full of Pointless Tribal Laws that Today's Christians Don't Even Adhere To. Back then my case was less developed than it is now, two years on.

Quote:
And speaking of arguing for atheism, what is it that you hope to accomplish by doing so?


Well, I do it for my own amusement. And you? Is this an attempt at conversion, or are you just pursuing an intellectual exercise?

Quote:
It is my observation that you continue to try to blame the Creator for the fact that mankind screwed up his creation. That makes no logical sense to me.


Your observation is incorrect. I do not blame God for mankind's actions; I blame him for the arbitrary consequences he sadistically set.

Quote:
Second, you seem to think he is obligated to fix everyone’s problems just so, when the reality is he is in no way obligated to do any such thing.


No, he's not. But which problem are we talking about here? Hell? This problem was caused by God, so it seems fair that he should fix it, does it not?

Quote:
The fact is, he has already done enough: he sacrificed his beloved Son to reconcile us to him.


4 billion non-Christians exist in the world, compared to only 2 billion who are saved. By what standards has he "done enough"?

Quote:
God has already done his part to reconcile us, but you want to blame him for everything to start with. He has made the supreme sacrifice for you, but you claim you won’t accept it unless it fits all of your criteria.


I find it amusing that the ultimate sacrifice of the crucifixion has gained God one-third of the world's population, whereas the ultimately small sacrifice of simply making his existence obvious would undoubtedly get him the whole lot.

Quote:
God has (and continues to) extend his hand to you in friendship and help, and you continue to spit in it.


Again, you assume I'm perfectly aware of God's existence - an assumption of which I'm getting rather tired.

Quote:
Now, you argue that you were not God’s enemy (at least if I understand you correctly), but the very fact that you are arguing against his Word demonstrates that you are.


Apparently I am, or else he wouldn't be sending me to Hell. I don't think I deserve to be, though.

Quote:
What’s more, by arguing your case for atheism (which is why I asked you what you hoped to accomplish earlier), you are trying to snatch away from him some of his saints (it remains to be seen if you will succeed).


Actually, no I'm not. I am not attempting to prevent anyone from reaching Heaven, simply because I don't believe that anyone will be deprived of Heaven because they don't believe in God.

Quote:
You claim that the existence of hell is unjust: I agree, but I understand that hell is the result of human injustice, not injustice on the part of God.


Did humans create Hell? No.

Did God create Hell? Yes.

Is the fact that a nonbeliever will automatically go to hell justified? No.

Is God doing anything to prevent this? No.

Can he? Yes.

Can we? No.

You can make up your own mind about who's being unjust, but it seems pretty clear to me.

Jimmie Johnson wrote:
We Christians, while knowing there might not exactly be so much "evidence" in some cases, have faith. Trust. Hope. In fact, this sense is so strong that we call them FACTS. We know, we have a feeling inside, a voice telling u these FACTS, and not just any voice but the VOICE OF TRUTH! JESUS IS THE VOICE OF TRUTH! He's that voice inside. He's that feeling. He's that trust, that, faith, that hope. He is the way, the truth, and the life, the source of all life, and the source of these FACTS can know for sure to be true!

And as I said before, this is a feeling you get through God's grace. The feeling, the faith, the trust, and the hope are so strong that you KNOW that they are FACTS! We consider it a feeling, a faith that others cannot comprehend. I;m sure the other Christians on here can agree with me.


Wow, that's a lot of capitals. Nonetheless, none of what you said makes the existence of God a fact, semantically or practically. Whether it is a truth is another matter, but not all truths are facts.
Author:  Alehandro [ Fri May 13, 2005 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  finnaly back...
WOW... that was long... Well anyway, if you claim to have been a praticing Christian for 12 years and then became an Athiest, you never even got in the "boat". Christians never go completely against their faith, such as you, therefore you never "practiced" at all. Meanwhile, God's saying, "Hey, man! you're drowning! Let me give you a hand there." and you are saying, as you're drowning, "No, that's alright I'm fine, by the way you don't exist." Also, humans created the possibly of them going to hell, it isn't supposed to be are last station. (but that's your choice)
:ehsteve:
Author:  Jimmie [ Fri May 13, 2005 9:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
And, yes, Upsilon, I did rwad your post. And even with the rest of that, I still said "Yes, we do.", and I still firmly stand by that.
Author:  Upsilon [ Sat May 14, 2005 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: finnaly back...
Jimmie Johnson, if you're not going to address any of my post and simply repeat something you said in your last post without even bothering to justify it (as you didn't last time), I don't think you belong in this topic.

alehandro wrote:
WOW... that was long... Well anyway, if you claim to have been a praticing Christian for 12 years and then became an Athiest, you never even got in the "boat". Christians never go completely against their faith, such as you, therefore you never "practiced" at all.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. While I was a Christian I believed firmly in God. Can you clarify?

Oh, and I don't normally bother to correct others' spelling and grammar, but it's spelt "atheist". As in, one who subscribes to atheism. And unlike "Christian" and "Christianity", "atheist" and "atheism" are not proper nouns. Sorry to nitpick, but it's an error I see far too often on the Internet.

Quote:
Meanwhile, God's saying, "Hey, man! you're drowning! Let me give you a hand there." and you are saying, as you're drowning, "No, that's alright I'm fine, by the way you don't exist."


No, he's not. This is the point that everybody is ignoring: God is not saying anything at all to me, nor has he ever. You all are, but none of you are God. In fact, you've set up a nice straw man there, in which I apparently speak with God on a regular basis. If this were true, obviously I'd be aware of his existence and there'd be no problem. But it's not; therein lies our problem.

I'm not telling God that he doesn't exist; if he doesn't exist, I can't tell him anything.

Quote:
Also, humans created the possibly of them going to hell, it isn't supposed to be are last station. (but that's your choice)
:ehsteve:


I think you'll find it's ultimately God's choice.
Author:  Jimmie [ Sat May 14, 2005 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: finnaly back...
Upsilon wrote:
Jimmie Johnson, if you're not going to address any of my post and simply repeat something you said in your last post without even bothering to justify it (as you didn't last time), I don't think you belong in this topic.


I did read your post, I just didn't quote it. I didn't feel I needed to quote the whole post. I'm basically saying what alehandro is saying.

And, on the analogy. So, if you take it from where you said all that stuff that you added in to the analogy, f God "pushed you off the boat", you would rather just sit there and die rather than trust him and get right back in the boat? That's a problem.
Author:  Alehandro [ Sat May 14, 2005 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: finnaly back...
alehandro wrote:
If you claim to have been a praticing Christian for 12 years and then became an athiest, you never even got in the "boat". Christians never go completely against their faith, such as you, therefore you never "practiced" at all.


Uplosion wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by this. While I was a Christian I believed firmly in God. Can you clarify?


Sure, once you get in the boat (boat=Christianity) you can't get out in any way, shape , or form. It's impossible. You may rock the boat a little, but you don't get out. Even if you try to get out into the lake (lake=being unsaved), Jesus keeps you in, no matter what you do. To blantently refuse his existence (that's atheism) means that you never got into the metaphorical "boat" in the first place. You beleived it was there, you even touched the hull, but you never got in. And eventually, convinced yourself it wasn't there, or full of bozos.

I beleieve that you may have been the, "Sure, I beleve in God. I'm a 'christian' " (lowercase on purpose) kind of person. You aren't saved by going to church every Sunday, memorizing various Biblical facts, or even getting baptized. You're saved by asking for forgiveness from God, beleiving that Jesus was born of a virgin, that He died on the cross to cover all of your sins, and that He rose again, and will return. THAT is what get's you saved. I'm not sure where you went wrong on that, but something had to happen for you to reject Him like that. (by the way, a God that sends his Son down to save the human race is not a God who enjoys sending us to hell)



alehandro wrote:
Meanwhile, God's saying, "Hey, man! you're drowning! Let me give you a hand there." and you are saying, as you're drowning, "No, that's alright I'm fine, by the way you don't exist."


Uplosion wrote:
No, he's not. This is the point that everybody is ignoring: God is not saying anything at all to me, nor has he ever. You all are, but none of you are God. In fact, you've set up a nice straw man there, in which I apparently speak with God on a regular basis. If this were true, obviously I'd be aware of his existence and there'd be no problem. But it's not; therein lies our problem.

I'm not telling God that he doesn't exist; if he doesn't exist, I can't tell him anything.


The fact that you were never saved will clear this all up. You can't speak to God and have a relationship with Him if you aren't saved.

alehandro wrote:
Also, humans created the possibly of them going to hell, it isn't supposed to be are last station. (but that's your choice)


Uplosion wrote:
I think you'll find it's ultimately God's choice.


Jesus wrote:
For I so loved the world that I came down here from a perfect eternity, so that whoever beleives in Me, will not perish in hellfire, but have eternal life.


"whosoever"=anyone. Atheism, will send you into a black eternity whether or not your'e right. Might as well come to Jesus, ain't gonna cost you a thing.
:ehsteve:
Author:  Melonade Man [ Sun May 15, 2005 1:02 am ]
Post subject: 
It really isn't nice to say that non-cristians (Me) are going to hell.
Maybe I really shouldn't read the religion and politics topics anymore... :eek:
Author:  Jimmie [ Sun May 15, 2005 2:12 am ]
Post subject: 
^It is nice, actually. It's spreading the word. And if you do become one, you won't be going there. You are never permanently off the boat.
Author:  Upsilon [ Sun May 15, 2005 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: finnaly back...
Jimmie Johnson wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
Jimmie Johnson, if you're not going to address any of my post and simply repeat something you said in your last post without even bothering to justify it (as you didn't last time), I don't think you belong in this topic.


I did read your post, I just didn't quote it. I didn't feel I needed to quote the whole post.


I didn't say you didn't read it, I said you didn't address it.

Quote:
And, on the analogy. So, if you take it from where you said all that stuff that you added in to the analogy, f God "pushed you off the boat", you would rather just sit there and die rather than trust him and get right back in the boat? That's a problem.


The main error you've fallen into here is simplifying the options: go God or stay religionless. In reality, it's not as simple as staying in the water or getting into the boat; there are, in fact, a potentially infinite number of boats, hitherto ignored, in the area. And they're all going to sink but one. You're telling me that the boat we were previously discussing is the one that won't sink. But there are plenty of other religions that tell me I'll go to Hell if I'm silly enough not to join them.

It's not just the boat. Pascal overlooked that and so have you.

armando wrote:
Sure, once you get in the boat (boat=Christianity) you can't get out in any way, shape , or form. It's impossible. You may rock the boat a little, but you don't get out. Even if you try to get out into the lake (lake=being unsaved), Jesus keeps you in, no matter what you do. To blantently refuse his existence (that's atheism) means that you never got into the metaphorical "boat" in the first place. You beleived it was there, you even touched the hull, but you never got in. And eventually, convinced yourself it wasn't there, or full of bozos.


Hang on, hang on. Does the fact that I jumped out of the boat (let's assume for the meantime that I did) mean that I was never in it? If a good Christian dies when he's 16, he'll be saved, surely. But if he lives to 60, by which time he's become, say, a Hindu, he's not. Right?

Quote:
I beleieve that you may have been the, "Sure, I beleve in God. I'm a 'christian' " (lowercase on purpose) kind of person. You aren't saved by going to church every Sunday, memorizing various Biblical facts, or even getting baptized. You're saved by asking for forgiveness from God, beleiving that Jesus was born of a virgin, that He died on the cross to cover all of your sins, and that He rose again, and will return. THAT is what get's you saved. I'm not sure where you went wrong on that, but something had to happen for you to reject Him like that.


Ah, you assume that I was a superficial Christian? You know about they say about what happens to U and ME when you assume.

And I don't consider it going wrong. I consider it going right.

Quote:
(by the way, a God that sends his Son down to save the human race is not a God who enjoys sending us to hell)


A very logical assertion. Do you know what conclusion I drew from that? I'll give you a clue: it was a very significant one which theists aren't fond of.

Quote:
The fact that you were never saved will clear this all up. You can't speak to God and have a relationship with Him if you aren't saved.


I thought this was quite ironic, since I've been told in the past that you can't be saved unless you speak to God and have a relationship with him.

Quote:
Atheism, will send you into a black eternity whether or not your'e right. Might as well come to Jesus, ain't gonna cost you a thing.


That's the most presumptuous, ill-thought-out and annoying comment for anyone in your position to make. Case in point: my parents still make me go to church even though I don't believe in it. The period of time from when I got up this morning (8:55 am) and when I finally got home from church (12:30 pm) was lost. I'd like to see you waste three and a half hours of your weekend every week then get told it's cost you nothing.

Oh, also, there is this thing called integrity which I consider fairly important.

Your second fallacy is that "coming to Jesus" is as simple as made out. You said earlier that going to church once a week and telling everyone how much you love Christ won't get you saved; you have to believe in him. How am I supposed to "come to Jesus" if I don't and can't believe in him?

Next, the main flaw of Pascal's Wager (and the same fallacy that I accused Jimmie Johnson of, above): you've simplified the scenario into two options. You assume one of the following is true:

    The Christian God exists and he rewards Christians and punishes non-Christians
    The Christian God does not exist and there is nothing after death


Of course, there are many more possibilities than that. If I subscribe to Christianity, according to your Wager, I'll either go to Heaven (if God exists) or oblivion (if he doesn't; this would have happened anyway). But it could be that there is a god who punishes the religious and rewards the secular, in which case converting to Christianity would be a very bad move. There are, in fact, an infinite number of theological possiblities, so ignoring all but two is absurd.

Finally, I have a logical argument which has not yet been refuted and which proves to my satisfaction that the Christian God does not exist. If this argument is sound, there is no point whatsoever in joining Christianity.
Author:  Jimmie [ Sun May 15, 2005 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: finnaly back...
Upsilon wrote:
Quote:
And, on the analogy. So, if you take it from where you said all that stuff that you added in to the analogy, if God "pushed you off the boat", you would rather just sit there and die rather than trust him and get right back in the boat? That's a problem.


The main error you've fallen into here is simplifying the options: go God or stay religionless. In reality, it's not as simple as staying in the water or getting into the boat; there are, in fact, a potentially infinite number of boats, hitherto ignored, in the area. And they're all going to sink but one. You're telling me that the boat we were previously discussing is the one that won't sink. But there are plenty of other religions that tell me I'll go to Hell if I'm silly enough not to join them.

It's not just the boat. Pascal overlooked that and so have you.


I have the faith and trust to know that the boat of Christianity shall never sink. That's what Christianity is about: faith and trust in God the Father, God the Son, and God in the Holy Ghost.

Quote:
I beleieve that you may have been the, "Sure, I beleve in God. I'm a 'christian' " (lowercase on purpose) kind of person. You aren't saved by going to church every Sunday, memorizing various Biblical facts, or even getting baptized. You're saved by asking for forgiveness from God, beleiving that Jesus was born of a virgin, that He died on the cross to cover all of your sins, and that He rose again, and will return. THAT is what get's you saved. I'm not sure where you went wrong on that, but something had to happen for you to reject Him like that.


Quote:
Ah, you assume that I was a superficial Christian? You know about they say about what happens to U and ME when you assume.


And you assumed earlier in your post.

Quote:
And I don't consider it going wrong. I consider it going right.


K, then I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.

Quote:
(by the way, a God that sends his Son down to save the human race is not a God who enjoys sending us to hell)


A very logical assertion. Do you know what conclusion I drew from that? I'll give you a clue: it was a very significant one which theists aren't fond of.[/quote]

So, we (at least Didymus and I) have asked others in this thread what they want us to do for them. No I ask, what do you want The Trinity to do for you?

Yeah, I know what you said. Make him known to you. But you've ignored: He has made Himself known to you through every true Christian that has ever touched your life. Especially now, on this thread, when we are explaining it all to you, and giving you the oppurtunity to know Him.

Quote:
The fact that you were never saved will clear this all up. You can't speak to God and have a relationship with Him if you aren't saved.


I thought this was quite ironic, since I've been told in the past that you can't be saved unless you speak to God and have a relationship with him.[/quote]

I'd have to disagree with you both on that. Speaking to God and letting him take control of your life is what gives you a relationship with Him, thus saving you.

Quote:
Atheism, will send you into a black eternity whether or not your'e right. Might as well come to Jesus, ain't gonna cost you a thing.


That's the most presumptuous, ill-thought-out and annoying comment for anyone in your position to make. Case in point: my parents still make me go to church even though I don't believe in it. The period of time from when I got up this morning (8:55 am) and when I finally got home from church (12:30 pm) was lost. I'd like to see you waste three and a half hours of your weekend every week then get told it's cost you nothing.[/quote]

You don't seem to get it: Christianity is not about going to a building to listen to a sermon. It's about believing and trusting in the Lord our God and Father, who loved us so much that he sent his one and only son, who was perfect, down to Earth to become a servant, and die on a cross, all to clear the gap between us and Him.

Quote:
Your second fallacy is that "coming to Jesus" is as simple as made out. You said earlier that going to church once a week and telling everyone how much you love Christ won't get you saved; you have to believe in him. How am I supposed to "come to Jesus" if I don't and can't believe in him?
Quote:

Here we go again: ignoring all we have been telling you, all that True Christians have given you. You can. but it seems you don't want to. If you want to be devoured by the sharks of hell, that's fine. I won't stop you. But if you want to live, and not only live, but live with your Father, get back in the boat and trust him. It doesn't matter what you believe he did to you in the past, just have trust that he won't harm you. If you come to Him, you will have enough faith that you won't even be afraid of dying.

Quote:
Next, the main flaw of Pascal's Wager (and the same fallacy that I accused Jimmie Johnson of, above): you've simplified the scenario into two options. You assume one of the following is true:

    The Christian God exists and he rewards Christians and punishes non-Christians
    The Christian God does not exist and there is nothing after death

Of course, there are many more possibilities than that. If I subscribe to Christianity, according to your Wager, I'll either go to Heaven (if God exists) or oblivion (if he doesn't; this would have happened anyway). There are, in fact, an infinite number of theological possiblities, so ignoring all but two is absurd.


Like I said, I have the faith to know that the boat of Christianity will never sink. If you call faith absurd, then I once again say: I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.

Quote:
But it could be that there is a god who punishes the religious and rewards the secular...


And of course, whoever believed in that religion would automatically go to oblivion. :-S
Quote:
Finally, I have a logical argument which has not yet been refuted and which proves to my satisfaction that the Christian God does not exist. If this argument is sound, there is no point whatsoever in joining Christianity.


Which is...?
Author:  bobjones [ Tue May 17, 2005 6:45 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm pretty sure it's worm food for me!

(the other option being i'll end up as smoke and ash.)

I'm not gonna go to hell, I imagine it's far too long a walk.
Author:  Alehandro [ Tue May 17, 2005 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: finnaly back...
Jimmie Johnson wrote:
And, on the analogy. So, if you take it from where you said all that stuff that you added in to the analogy, f God "pushed you off the boat", you would rather just sit there and die rather than trust him and get right back in the boat? That's a problem.

Uplosion wrote:
The main error you've fallen into here is simplifying the options: go God or stay religionless. In reality, it's not as simple as staying in the water or getting into the boat; there are, in fact, a potentially infinite number of boats, hitherto ignored, in the area. And they're all going to sink but one. You're telling me that the boat we were previously discussing is the one that won't sink. But there are plenty of other religions that tell me I'll go to Hell if I'm silly enough not to join them.


It's just that the large magority of religions in the world are either small cults, large cults, or large, formatted religions, that are one step away from being cults, (including some unnamed ones that say "jesus" is their god) or tell their patrons to kill all unbeleivers. Christianity is the most scientifically, ethically, and logically refuteable in the lot. Therefore, making it logical that Christianity's "boat" won't sink, and the rafts will sink.

alehandro wrote:
Sure, once you get in the boat (boat=Christianity) you can't get out in any way, shape , or form. It's impossible. You may rock the boat a little, but you don't get out. Even if you try to get out into the lake (lake=being unsaved), Jesus keeps you in, no matter what you do. To blantently refuse his existence (that's atheism) means that you never got into the metaphorical "boat" in the first place. You beleived it was there, you even touched the hull, but you never got in. And eventually, convinced yourself it wasn't there, or full of bozos.


Uplosion wrote:
Hang on, hang on. Does the fact that I jumped out of the boat (let's assume for the meantime that I did) mean that I was never in it? If a good Christian dies when he's 16, he'll be saved, surely. But if he lives to 60, by which time he's become, say, a Hindu, he's not. Right?


Cite one or more instance of this, in detail, then i'll analyze that.

alehandro wrote:
I beleieve that you may have been the, "Sure, I beleve in God. I'm a 'christian' " (lowercase on purpose) kind of person. You aren't saved by going to church every Sunday, memorizing various Biblical facts, or even getting baptized. You're saved by asking for forgiveness from God, beleiving that Jesus was born of a virgin, that He died on the cross to cover all of your sins, and that He rose again, and will return. THAT is what get's you saved. I'm not sure where you went wrong on that, but something had to happen for you to reject Him like that.


Uplosion wrote:
Ah, you assume that I was a superficial Christian? You know about they say about what happens to U and ME when you assume.
And I don't consider it going wrong. I consider it going right.


So, you consider trying, and failing, to dissprove something that is older than eternity itself, arguing that the death's of millions of maryters were useless, and trying to prove a religion that will teave us in a enternal sate of unconciousness if true... ETHICAL?

alehandro wrote:
(by the way, a God that sends his Son down to save the human race is not a God who enjoys sending us to hell)


Uplosion wrote:
A very logical assertion. Do you know what conclusion I drew from that? I'll give you a clue: it was a very significant one which theists aren't fond of.


Well, the most obvious one is that you think God doesn't exist, but if you have an opinion, throw it in the public square for appraisal.

alehandro wrote:
The fact that you were never saved will clear this all up. You can't speak to God and have a relationship with Him if you aren't saved.


Uplosion wrote:
I thought this was quite ironic, since I've been told in the past that you can't be saved unless you speak to God and have a relationship with him.


What I meant was that you can't have a relationship with God, and be able to speak with him. I speak to him every day, and he speaks to me. The only tangible, verbal relation between the unsaved and God are his followers, who speak back and forth to him every day. My mom was saved in college due to her roomate praying for a new teacher in her physics class, and the next day, the guy was transfered, previously unnanounced to students.

alehandro wrote:
Atheism, will send you into a black eternity whether or not your'e right. Might as well come to Jesus, ain't gonna cost you a thing.


Uplosion wrote:
That's the most presumptuous, ill-thought-out and annoying comment for anyone in your position to make. Case in point: my parents still make me go to church even though I don't believe in it. The period of time from when I got up this morning (8:55 am) and when I finally got home from church (12:30 pm) was lost. I'd like to see you waste three and a half hours of your weekend every week then get told it's cost you nothing.


This proves my point about you being superficial. It's only three hours. I don't think it'll kill you. If you think that Christianity is listening to some old man talk for 45min to an hour, you don't know what Christianity is. In the grand scheme of things, you'll spend more time on the can than church. Think about it. Also, remember life is useless.

Uplosion wrote:
Oh, also, there is this thing called integrity which I consider fairly important.


See my thing on your ethics.

Uplosion wrote:
Your second fallacy is that "coming to Jesus" is as simple as made out. You said earlier that going to church once a week and telling everyone how much you love Christ won't get you saved; you have to believe in him. How am I supposed to "come to Jesus" if I don't and can't believe in him?


I noticed you didn't quote my, "How to Get Saved", speach. Through what I wrote, you can come in. You were never blocked, maybe by your pride, but not by God.

Uplosion wrote:
Next, the main flaw of Pascal's Wager (and the same fallacy that I accused Jimmie Johnson of, above): you've simplified the scenario into two options. You assume one of the following is true:

    The Christian God exists and he rewards Christians and punishes non-Christians
    The Christian God does not exist and there is nothing after death

Of course, there are many more possibilities than that. If I subscribe to Christianity, according to your Wager, I'll either go to Heaven (if God exists) or oblivion (if he doesn't; this would have happened anyway). But it could be that there is a god who punishes the religious and rewards the secular, in which case converting to Christianity would be a very bad move. There are, in fact, an infinite number of theological possiblities, so ignoring all but two is absurd.


Now THAT is absurd. Also, see "why christianity's boat isn't sinking"

Uplosion wrote:
Finally, I have a logical argument which has not yet been refuted and which proves to my satisfaction that the Christian God does not exist. If this argument is sound, there is no point whatsoever in joining Christianity.


Take it against us then. Let it out if it's apparently going to bring us to our knees.

Also, Jimmie Jhonson, SHARKS OF HELL? That's a LITTLE bit over the top man.
:ehsteve:
Author:  Jimmie [ Tue May 17, 2005 10:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Heh, yeah, I decided to add to the analogy lik that. :P Make the waters seem a bit more deadly. Lol.
Author:  Simon Zeno [ Wed May 18, 2005 1:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Most of the "Pro-Christian" supporters here are saying that Hell is the natural consquence of death, and that Heaven is more of a priviledge than a right. This makes sense. You have also said that God doesn't "send" people to Hell. However, consider this: If He knows that someone is going to Hell, and smites them, is that not as good as sending them to Hell? Like that whole flooding the world thing, or other random smitings. Just a thought.
Author:  Jimmie [ Wed May 18, 2005 1:18 am ]
Post subject: 
He doesn't smite. And he promised never to flood the world again.
Author:  Simon Zeno [ Wed May 18, 2005 1:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Jimmie Johnson wrote:
And he promised never to flood the world again.


I'm sure that the former population of Earth that got purged out, who are now rotting in the apparently shark-infested waters of Hell are quite placated by that. A promise and a rainbow, after wiping out over 99% of all life everywhere, isn't much indemnity. Even if it was justifiable.

Oh, and:
Samuel 6:19
"But God struck down some of the men of Beth Shemesh, putting seventy of them to death because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. The people mourned because of the heavy blow the LORD had dealt them, "

Kings 2:23
"Elisha left Jericho to go to Bethel and on the way some boys came out of a town and made fun of him. "Get out of here, Baldy!" they shouted. Elisha turned around, glared at them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces."

Numbers 16:16
The escaped Israelites had been complaining to Moses about the lack of water, sustenence and food in the desert that they have been led to by Moses.
16 Moses commands that 250 of them must come to the tent and present incense at the altar. They do so.
21God says, "Stand back from these people, and I will destroy them immediately."
Moses then asks an important moral question:
22 "But Moses and Aaron bowed down and said, "O, God, you are the source of all life. When one man sins, do you get angry with the whole community?"
31-34 "the ground under Dathan and Abiram split open and swallowed them and their families, together with all of Korah's followers and their possessions. The earth closed over them, and they vanished. All the people of Israel who were there fled when they heard their cry. They shouted, "Run! The earth might swallow us too!
35 Then the Lord sent a fire that blazed out and burnt up the 250 men who had presented the incense."

If that's not smiting, then I don't know what is.
Author:  Didymus [ Wed May 18, 2005 2:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Simon, I was just about to point out to Jimmie a few of these examples myself. I personally believe that, as the Lord of Life, he is the one who gives and takes away life from all. There is occasional smiting going on.

It is also my belief that, even though there is a drama to be played out in the invisible realm, the real drama is here on earth. Even the Christian's ultimate hope is not heaven, per se, but new life in the Resurrection. But I digress.

The examples of God smiting people in history are part of that drama. Let's not forget the example Camel Dude brought up earlier about the Last Plague of Exodus, where God smote all the firstborn of Egypt (men, boys, animals). The reason? Because both Egypt and Israel needed to see who was truly God, and that ain't Pharaoh.

Oh, and what about Ananias and Sapphira? They were smote'd also for lying to the Holy Spirit. That was the example that came to my mind.

Every man owes God a death. In those cases where God smites, they just pay a little earlier. As to whether they deserve hell or not, well, as we've pointed out, all life is a gift from God, as is eternal life. In those cases where God smites, those smite'd were usually abusing or misusing that gift of life. If that person had lived to old age, there's no guarantee that they wouldn't go to hell anyway.

I liked how you put it, Simon, that we Christians are making the point that eternal life is a gift, and hell is a consequence of human failure. God doesn't really owe us anything. That's one presupposition (God owing us) I've tried to challenge in the past, but keeps coming up again.
Author:  bobjones [ Wed May 18, 2005 6:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Jimmie Johnson wrote:
He doesn't smite. And he promised never to flood the world again.


"Oh, vengeful Lord! Tell me who to smite and they shall be smoten"

Homer disagrees :)
Author:  Didymus [ Wed May 18, 2005 6:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Homer doesn't blieve in Jebus.
Author:  Alehandro [ Wed May 18, 2005 8:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Homer wrote:
God loves you...AND HE'LL KILL YOU!

:ehsteve:
Author:  Anarchy_Balsac [ Thu May 19, 2005 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are all Non-christians Going to Hell?
Ricksea wrote:
Assuming that there is a Christian afterlife, is 70% (apx. 3.5 billion) of the world going to Hell? Also remember the animal issue and that some Christians aren't good people, which can only escalate the hellions.

So, what do you think?


The only christians who beleive that are catholics, who believe virtuous non-christians go to a place called limbo. The interpretations of it vary from being a psuedo-hell to a psuedo heaven.
Author:  Evin290 [ Thu May 19, 2005 7:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
It's just that the large magority of religions in the world are either small cults, large cults, or large, formatted religions, that are one step away from being cults, (including some unnamed ones that say "jesus" is their god) or tell their patrons to kill all unbeleivers. Christianity is the most scientifically, ethically, and logically refuteable in the lot. Therefore, making it logical that Christianity's "boat" won't sink, and the rafts will sink.

What do you base this on? Christianity is a scientifically and logically feasable as Judaism, or Islam, or Hinduism, or anything. What makes Christianity special? Because YOU believe in it? Is THAT what makes it the best?

Quote:
So, you consider trying, and failing, to dissprove something that is older than eternity itself, arguing that the death's of millions of maryters were useless, and trying to prove a religion that will teave us in a enternal sate of unconciousness if true... ETHICAL?

I understand you're semi-anger here, but you're barely using real sentences and words here. Who are these millions of martyrs you speak of? Millions? I wasn't aware the number was that vast. But you don't know that they weren't "useless." People who die in mass suicides for a cult might consider themselves martyrs. In the eyes of the followers of that cult, they are dying for a reason, but you contend that their deaths are useless but martyrs for Christianity died for a noble cause. And what would be so horrible if it turned out that there was no heaven and hell? How could an eternal state of unconciousness be terrible if you're unconcious?

Quote:
What I meant was that you can't have a relationship with God, and be able to speak with him. I speak to him every day, and he speaks to me. The only tangible, verbal relation between the unsaved and God are his followers, who speak back and forth to him every day. My mom was saved in college due to her roomate praying for a new teacher in her physics class, and the next day, the guy was transfered, previously unnanounced to students.

Yes but if someone claims they speak to the Invisible Pink Unicorn and they seriously tell people that they do, they won't be treated as highly religious, they'd be treated as highly insane.

Quote:
This proves my point about you being superficial. It's only three hours. I don't think it'll kill you. If you think that Christianity is listening to some old man talk for 45min to an hour, you don't know what Christianity is. In the grand scheme of things, you'll spend more time on the can than church. Think about it. Also, remember life is useless.

He wasn't complaining about the fact that it was three hours. He was complaining that he's made up his mind about his theistic beliefs and that his parents still make him waste time trying to change his mind. He can believe what he wants.

What do you mean LIFE IS USELESS?!

Quote:
K, then I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.

So you want him to go to hell? Isn't that not what Jesus would like his followers to be saying?

Quote:
Yeah, I know what you said. Make him known to you. But you've ignored: He has made Himself known to you through every true Christian that has ever touched your life. Especially now, on this thread, when we are explaining it all to you, and giving you the oppurtunity to know Him.

It's merely Upsilon's skepticism, which is sometimes helpful and sometimes annoying. From what I understand, he can't have faith in something if he can't see it. That's fair enough. For others, faith is enough.

Quote:
Here we go again: ignoring all we have been telling you, all that True Christians have given you. You can. but it seems you don't want to. If you want to be devoured by the sharks of hell, that's fine. I won't stop you. But if you want to live, and not only live, but live with your Father, get back in the boat and trust him. It doesn't matter what you believe he did to you in the past, just have trust that he won't harm you. If you come to Him, you will have enough faith that you won't even be afraid of dying.

Again, he is a skeptic. He can't believe in God because it's the way his mind works. It's not his fault. He could be right, you could be right. He demands evidence, you need none. Whatever. Deal. And that dying bit... If Upsilon is correct and after death nothing happens, why would he fear death? If he's not afraid of hell why would he be afraid of dying?
Author:  Smorky [ Thu May 19, 2005 8:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
evin290 wrote:
From what I understand, he can't have faith in something if he can't see it.


But isn't that the principle behind faith? Believing without seeing?
Author:  Jimmie [ Thu May 19, 2005 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
evin290 wrote:
Quote:
K, then I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.

So you want him to go to hell? Isn't that not what Jesus would like his followers to be saying?


I didn't say I wanted him to, I said I wouldn't stop him if he made the decision. It's his decision, not mine.

Quote:
Quote:
Here we go again: ignoring all we have been telling you, all that True Christians have given you. You can. but it seems you don't want to. If you want to be devoured by the sharks of hell, that's fine. I won't stop you. But if you want to live, and not only live, but live with your Father, get back in the boat and trust him. It doesn't matter what you believe he did to you in the past, just have trust that he won't harm you. If you come to Him, you will have enough faith that you won't even be afraid of dying.

Again, he is a skeptic. He can't believe in God because it's the way his mind works. It's not his fault. He could be right, you could be right. He demands evidence, you need none. Whatever. Deal. And that dying bit... If Upsilon is correct and after death nothing happens, why would he fear death? If he's not afraid of hell why would he be afraid of dying?

If he believes there is no afterlife, what would be the most exciting part: living or being dead? The obvious answer is the former. Which is why people avoid dying. I was before I met God. Now I'm not. Sure, I'd rather live long than live a short life, but it's just that I'm not scared of death.
Author:  Evin290 [ Sat May 21, 2005 3:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
I see what you mean Jimmie Johnson, but that's for Upsilon to say, not us.
Author:  Upsilon [ Sat May 21, 2005 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: finnaly back...
Jimmie Johnson wrote:
Upsilon wrote:
...It's not just the boat. Pascal overlooked that and so have you.


I have the faith and trust to know that the boat of Christianity shall never sink. That's what Christianity is about: faith and trust in God the Father, God the Son, and God in the Holy Ghost.


Well, you've probably debated with me for long enough by now to have gained a vague idea of what my opinion of faith is. You tell me that I should just have faith in God because you do - why should I choose Christianity over Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, that Unicorn thing or some invisible god? They're all just as easy to have unjustified faith in.

Quote:
Quote:
Ah, you assume that I was a superficial Christian? You know about they say about what happens to U and ME when you assume.


And you assumed earlier in your post.


Oh? Sorry about that. When?

Quote:
Quote:
And I don't consider it going wrong. I consider it going right.


K, then I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.


Well, if we're going to be like that, I hope you enjoy wasting your life under the delusion that an utterly impossible deity will save you from your primal fear of oblivion after death and condemn all those who disagree with you to an absurdly terrible fate.

Quote:
Quote:
A very logical assertion. Do you know what conclusion I drew from that? I'll give you a clue: it was a very significant one which theists aren't fond of.


So, we (at least Didymus and I) have asked others in this thread what they want us to do for them. No I ask, what do you want The Trinity to do for you?

Yeah, I know what you said. Make him known to you. But you've ignored: He has made Himself known to you through every true Christian that has ever touched your life. Especially now, on this thread, when we are explaining it all to you, and giving you the oppurtunity to know Him.


What about atheists who have "touched my life"? When a Christian does something remarkably benevolent it's a miracle of faith. When an infidel does it, it doesn't count because it doesn't help your argument. Correct?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that you were never saved will clear this all up. You can't speak to God and have a relationship with Him if you aren't saved.


I thought this was quite ironic, since I've been told in the past that you can't be saved unless you speak to God and have a relationship with him.


I'd have to disagree with you both on that. Speaking to God and letting him take control of your life is what gives you a relationship with Him, thus saving you.


Is that not essentially what I said?

Quote:
Quote:
That's the most presumptuous, ill-thought-out and annoying comment for anyone in your position to make. Case in point: my parents still make me go to church even though I don't believe in it. The period of time from when I got up this morning (8:55 am) and when I finally got home from church (12:30 pm) was lost. I'd like to see you waste three and a half hours of your weekend every week then get told it's cost you nothing.


You don't seem to get it: Christianity is not about going to a building to listen to a sermon. It's about believing and trusting in the Lord our God and Father, who loved us so much that he sent his one and only son, who was perfect, down to Earth to become a servant, and die on a cross, all to clear the gap between us and Him.


Okay, say I'm not a church-going Christian (and most are, in my experience). There are still rules of the religion I'd have to adhere to which could spoil my enjoyment of life. For example, say I'm gay (which I'm not, but some people are). If I was to turn to Jesus, I would never be allowed to have sex in my life; if I remained atheist, I would not be denied that pleasure.

Also, I note you disregarded the bit about "integrity". Do you think I'd feel good about lying to everyone about what I believed throughout my life? About as good as you'd feel telling everyone you were a Satanist. Whereas I'd be much more comfortable being able to express my true views.

Quote:
Quote:
Your second fallacy is that "coming to Jesus" is as simple as made out. You said earlier that going to church once a week and telling everyone how much you love Christ won't get you saved; you have to believe in him. How am I supposed to "come to Jesus" if I don't and can't believe in him?


Here we go again: ignoring all we have been telling you, all that True Christians have given you. You can. but it seems you don't want to. If you want to be devoured by the sharks of hell, that's fine. I won't stop you. But if you want to live, and not only live, but live with your Father, get back in the boat and trust him. It doesn't matter what you believe he did to you in the past, just have trust that he won't harm you. If you come to Him, you will have enough faith that you won't even be afraid of dying.


Don't want to believe in him? Look, if I was given the choice between oblivion and eternal bliss, which do you think I'd choose? But I can't believe in something as fundamentally nonsensical as Christian doctrine. I have to face the truth: it ain't real. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get a slice of that eternal bliss stuff.

Can you believe in round triangles? No? Then don't go telling me I can believe in whatever I like.

Oh, and I don't believe there's anything in the past to forget about. It's what he intends to do to me in the future that worries me.

Quote:
Quote:
Next, the main flaw of Pascal's Wager (and the same fallacy that I accused Jimmie Johnson of, above): you've simplified the scenario into two options. You assume one of the following is true:

    The Christian God exists and he rewards Christians and punishes non-Christians
    The Christian God does not exist and there is nothing after death

Of course, there are many more possibilities than that. If I subscribe to Christianity, according to your Wager, I'll either go to Heaven (if God exists) or oblivion (if he doesn't; this would have happened anyway). There are, in fact, an infinite number of theological possiblities, so ignoring all but two is absurd.


Like I said, I have the faith to know that the boat of Christianity will never sink. If you call faith absurd, then I once again say: I hope you enjoy your future in hell. It should be very nice to meet the spirit-eating sharks swimming in the water by the boat.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but yes, I do find the concept of faith absurd. It runs essentially thus: there might be a deity who will reward us if we believe in him. There is virtually no evidence at all for this being's existence and a condemning case against it. But who cares, let's have faith!

And if objecting to that train of thought earns me a ticket to Hell, there's something fundamentally wrong with the way the universe is run.

Quote:
Quote:
But it could be that there is a god who punishes the religious and rewards the secular...


And of course, whoever believed in that religion would automatically go to oblivion. :-S


Ironic, isn't it?

Quote:
Quote:
Finally, I have a logical argument which has not yet been refuted and which proves to my satisfaction that the Christian God does not exist. If this argument is sound, there is no point whatsoever in joining Christianity.


Which is...?


Exactly that which I have been presenting throughout the topic. To clarify, here it is in logical steps:

1. Christianity is true. (Assumption.)
2. God exists. (From 1.)
3. God can do anything that is not a contradiction (like devising a task he can't do). (From 1.)
4. God loves every single one of us and would do anything to keep us from Hell. (From 1.)
5. This god sends all who do not believe in him to Hell. (From 1.)
6. God does not like the fact that infidels are going to Hell and would prevent it if he could. (From 4.)
7. God does not prevent this. (From 5.)
8. Therefore, God cannot prevent this. (From 4 and 5.)

Contradiction between 3 and 8. Therefore, premise 1 must be false.

Basically, it's the problem of evil, only with Hell instead.

armando wrote:
It's just that the large magority of religions in the world are either small cults, large cults, or large, formatted religions, that are one step away from being cults, (including some unnamed ones that say "jesus" is their god) or tell their patrons to kill all unbeleivers. Christianity is the most scientifically, ethically, and logically refuteable in the lot. Therefore, making it logical that Christianity's "boat" won't sink, and the rafts will sink.


By 'refutable' I presume you mean 'irrefutable'? If so, look one quote above.

Also, you only mention existing beliefs on Earth, which only brings the total to a finite (though large) amount. If you take into account all theological possibilities for unacknowledged gods, we have a literally infinite number of boats.

Quote:
Cite one or more instance of this, in detail, then i'll analyze that.


What, you mean cite one instance of a Christian who died but would have been converted if he hadn't died? I'm no psychic, you know.

If you mean an example of someone who turned away before dying - I'm right here. Analyse me.

Quote:
So, you consider trying, and failing, to dissprove something that is older than eternity itself, arguing that the death's of millions of maryters were useless, and trying to prove a religion that will teave us in a enternal sate of unconciousness if true... ETHICAL?


I never mentioned ethics. I meant 'right' as a synonym for 'correct'.

But if we must get into it, I don't consider being an atheist unethical. I don't believe that I'm doing the world a great favour by assuming a certain theological viewpoint, but not do I consider it to be wrong in that sense. Why do you ask? Do you consider it wrong?

Quote:
Well, the most obvious one is that you think God doesn't exist, but if you have an opinion, throw it in the public square for appraisal.


Well done. (Note that, as ever, by "God" I mean the Christian version of God; I'm not going to make generalisations about all nature of potential deities.)

Quote:
What I meant was that you can't have a relationship with God, and be able to speak with him. I speak to him every day, and he speaks to me. The only tangible, verbal relation between the unsaved and God are his followers, who speak back and forth to him every day.


That's also what you said, is it not?

Quote:
My mom was saved in college due to her roomate praying for a new teacher in her physics class...


If I may say so, that sounds like a very Chick-esque conversion - by which I mean the type where Christian A mentions Jesus, then Infidel-who's-never-heard-of-Christianity-in-their-life-before B asks them for more information about this Jesus person. This type of conversion is, of course, very rare.

Quote:
...and the next day, the guy was transfered, previously unnanounced to students.


Not sure whether that was a casual remark or a pro-theism argument out of the blue. If the latter, either that's a coincidence or a myth (with all due respect to your mother, of course).

Quote:
This proves my point about you being superficial. It's only three hours. I don't think it'll kill you.


Only three hours? If you think three hours is inconsequential, why don't you work for me for three hours every week?

Quote:
If you think that Christianity is listening to some old man talk for 45min to an hour, you don't know what Christianity is.


And yet the vast majority of Christians subject themselves to this, allegedly because their faith requires it. If you think church has no place in Christianity, tell that to my parents (one of whom, incidentally, is an organist and the other helps at the Sunday school).

Quote:
Also, remember life is useless.


Eek! Where did that come from? Life certainly isn't useless from my perspective. All things considered, I rather enjoy it.

Quote:
See my thing on your ethics.


Ah. Might you be one of those people who believes morality can only come from belief in God?

Quote:
I noticed you didn't quote my, "How to Get Saved", speach. Through what I wrote, you can come in. You were never blocked, maybe by your pride, but not by God.


Oh? And how do you profess to know whether or not I've been "blocked"?

I reiterate for clarity's sake: I have never received anything which is in any clear way a message from God. I have received relatively unlikely coincidences and brief feelings of a vague happiness, but nothing that can not be very easily attributed to statistics and natural phenomena. No-one who tells me that I have received such messages has any authority to judge what I do and don't think.

And frankly, it's downright insulting to attribute my lack of faith to my pride. I could just as easily say that your belief is pride-fuelled, you know.

Quote:
Now THAT is absurd.


Um, were you referring to ignoring all but two of an infinite number of possiblities or my post?

Quote:
Take it against us then. Let it out if it's apparently going to bring us to our knees.


Just did. (See the numbered 1-8 bit.)

No Smorking wrote:
But isn't that the principle behind faith? Believing without seeing?


Yes, and that's why faith is irrational. :)

Evin: Cheers.
Author:  Evin290 [ Sun May 22, 2005 2:43 am ]
Post subject: 
Wow. I've never been said "cheers" to. Thanks for that monumentous moment in my life ;)

anyhoots, I have a question for you Upsilon.
Do your parents know your atheists? Do they take you to church because they think you still believe in the religion, or do they take to because they want to to reconnect to it?
Author:  StrongCanada [ Sun May 22, 2005 3:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sorry to jump in on your discussion like this - just saw a few points that I'd like to address.

Upsilon wrote:
What about atheists who have "touched my life"? When a Christian does something remarkably benevolent it's a miracle of faith. When an infidel does it, it doesn't count because it doesn't help your argument. Correct?


I don't think so. God created everyone, and therefore when an "infidel" (I don't like that term) does something kind or miraculous, it's still a work of God, even if that person doesn't believe in Him.

Upsilon wrote:
Okay, say I'm not a church-going Christian (and most are, in my experience). There are still rules of the religion I'd have to adhere to which could spoil my enjoyment of life. For example, say I'm gay (which I'm not, but some people are). If I was to turn to Jesus, I would never be allowed to have sex in my life; if I remained atheist, I would not be denied that pleasure.

Also, I note you disregarded the bit about "integrity". Do you think I'd feel good about lying to everyone about what I believed throughout my life? About as good as you'd feel telling everyone you were a Satanist. Whereas I'd be much more comfortable being able to express my true views.


Point taken. But I personally don't think that there are any rules in Christianity that keep me from enjoying life; even in your example of homosexuality - and LOTS of Christians will disagree with me on this point, I know - I believe that God loves us and I have a hard time believing that he would make people a certain way and then not accept them into His Kingdom. Now before you jump on me and say "What about atheists or murderers or others who are 'made that way'?", well, those things are choices that people make, not God.

But on to your argument...I think that some of the points you have aren't exactly correct...

Upsilon wrote:
1. Christianity is true. (Assumption.)
2. God exists. (From 1.)
3. God can do anything that is not a contradiction (like devising a task he can't do). (From 1.)
4. God loves every single one of us and would do anything to keep us from Hell. (From 1.)
5. This god sends all who do not believe in him to Hell. (From 1.)
6. God does not like the fact that infidels are going to Hell and would prevent it if he could. (From 4.)
7. God does not prevent this. (From 5.)
8. Therefore, God cannot prevent this. (From 4 and 5.)

Contradiction between 3 and 8. Therefore, premise 1 must be false.


Specifically with number 3...there really isn't anything God can't do, according to Christian doctrine...also in 6 - God doesn't like the fact that "infidels" are going to hell, you're right, but His "prevention", so to speak is His sacrifice of his only Son, Jesus. But I don't think that just because God doesn't prevent people from going to hell means that He can't prevent it. I mean, come on, would you wanna spend eternity with someone who doesn't like you? ;)

Upsilon wrote:
If I may say so, that sounds like a very Chick-esque conversion - by which I mean the type where Christian A mentions Jesus, then Infidel-who's-never-heard-of-Christianity-in-their-life-before B asks them for more information about this Jesus person. This type of conversion is, of course, very rare.


Yes, but it does happen. And God has instructed us to teach all who will listen. Honestly, even as a Christian, I agree with you - the new teacher transferring probably was a coincidence...but perhaps it wasn't.

Upsilon wrote:
And yet the vast majority of Christians subject themselves to this, allegedly because their faith requires it.


You're right about that. And I sometimes despise going to church because there are certain persons there who go to be seen and not to worship, because they think it's what they're supposed to do. And I honestly have people like you to thank for pointing that flaw out to me. Which is why when I do go to church (somewhat infrequently) I try my best to communicate with God during the service. But I also talk to God all the time in my regular life, too. I've said it somewhere else on one of these threads that when my life is troubled, there is no comfort like prayer. For me, it works, for others, it doesn't. Agree to disagree.

Upsilon wrote:
Ah. Might you be one of those people who believes morality can only come from belief in God?


I can't speak for him/her, but I can speak for myself - morality doesn't come from belief God. God does teach us morality, and give us guidelines, but as you point out, there are plenty of moral atheists. I'm friends with several, and I love them, and I know God loves them too, despite their unbelief. And just in case you're wondering, no, I don't sit around and preach to them....but if they ever came to me and wanted to know about God, I'd teach them the best way I could.

Upsilon wrote:
I reiterate for clarity's sake: I have never received anything which is in any clear way a message from God. I have received relatively unlikely coincidences and brief feelings of a vague happiness, but nothing that can not be very easily attributed to statistics and natural phenomena. No-one who tells me that I have received such messages has any authority to judge what I do and don't think.


Okay - I'm curious - what would you consider as a clear message from God? An angel? Then you'd have people throwing you in the loony bin! They'd never believe you saw an angel. I personally think that God communicates to us and works through us in ways that are appropriate for the time. He knows that if he just started "popping up" and talking to us, we'd probably be labled schizophrenic! Whereas in Biblical times, that wasn't a problem, so he would appear to people. Just like I think that's why there are no named female disciples/ministers/etc. in the Bible - God knew if they attempted to minister, they risked being hurt. Nowadays, women don't have that worry. I don't mean to make a joke of this, so seriously, what would you consider proof?

Upsilon, I just want to end this by saying that I genuinely enjoy having these debates with you. Your arguments are well thought out, and you don't resort to mudslinging, so just in case it needs to be said, I'm not condemning you for your beliefs. I am simply addressing some of the things you've said. I won't ever try to push Christianity on anyone, but if you ever change your mind, or you even want to know more about the man who loved each and every one of us so much that He died for us, just let me know.
Author:  Upsilon [ Wed May 25, 2005 5:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
evin290 wrote:
Do your parents know your atheists?


Yes.

As you can see, I don't like to talk about it.

StrongCanada wrote:
Now before you jump on me and say "What about atheists or murderers or others who are 'made that way'?", well, those things are choices that people make, not God.


Yeah, but what makes a choice to do something innocuous any more reprehensible than being a certain way? For example, if I buy a book, that's a choice I made, but you can't argue that I should be punished for it. The fact that I'm responsible for it doesn't make it bad.

Quote:
Specifically with number 3...there really isn't anything God can't do, according to Christian doctrine...


Surely that's not possible. Note that I gave the example of devising a task he can't do. Either he can do this action or he can't. If he can't, it means there's something he can't do. If he can, it also means there's something he can't do. So either way, it's impossible to be absolutely omnipotent.

Quote:
also in 6 - God doesn't like the fact that "infidels" are going to hell, you're right, but His "prevention", so to speak is His sacrifice of his only Son, Jesus.


If I die immediately after typing this up, will the fact that Jesus was crucified prevent me from going to Hell?

Quote:
But I don't think that just because God doesn't prevent people from going to hell means that He can't prevent it. I mean, come on, would you wanna spend eternity with someone who doesn't like you?


Interesting proposition. You're saying I'd prefer Hell?

Quote:
Okay - I'm curious - what would you consider as a clear message from God? An angel? Then you'd have people throwing you in the loony bin! They'd never believe you saw an angel.


Not if everyone saw angels. If everyone knew angels existed and that God existed, everyone would follow him. There'd be no need for innocent people to be sent to Hell.

Quote:
Upsilon, I just want to end this by saying that I genuinely enjoy having these debates with you. Your arguments are well thought out, and you don't resort to mudslinging, so just in case it needs to be said, I'm not condemning you for your beliefs. I am simply addressing some of the things you've said.


Ditto here.
Author:  Occasional JD [ Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:59 am ]
Post subject: 
What if christianity isn't the true religion? What if it is the "Church of Spongebob" or the "Jedi Knight" or the "Strong Sad is the devil" religons? Would the non-believers go to a "hell"?

I agree that us atheists are fighting an uphill battle. If we are wrong, we spend an eternity in hell, which sucks. If we are right, we spend eternity decomposing into the ground, while worms suck out our intestines, which sucks.
Page 8 of 13 All times are UTC
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/