Rosie, you enjoy America bashing, don't you? Why do you not like the idea of prisons being tough? Punishment isn't supposed to be easy. And Prison is punishment. So, prison shouldn't be easy.

Rosie, you enjoy America bashing, don't you? Why do you not like the idea of prisons being tough? Punishment isn't supposed to be easy. And Prison is punishment. So, prison shouldn't be easy.

TOTP'D!

I love the sinking to their level argument. Sinking to his level would be to let him free, then when he is at a convienience store and unsuspecting, come in with a shotgun and blow his face off, then laugh at him while gurguling sounds come out of his obliterated face.

I'm glad that we take the higher road and give him a fair trial and allow him the opportunity to appeal his verdict. Mr. Williams got over twenty years to change himself, thats over twenty years more than he gave his victims.

actually, there is five lives wasted, but hopefully the last one that was wasted will save others from making the same mistakes.

Prison isn't "easy" either way. Being locked up with a bunch of loons where you're strictly watched away from friends, family, and the majority of things you may have enjoyed doing in your spare time isn't "easy".

You talk as if TV is that good in the first place.

I don't see what's wrong with it. The majority of people do have TVs and watch them. Ideally, you may have a point, but realistically, you have to make it so they have some kind of livable life if they're going to even attempt to reform. There are better ways to make people think about what they've done other than hard graft, too.

Well it isn't just TV, I was just using that as an example. You make an interesting point about how better conditions make it easier to reform, but I was talking more about people in max security, life in prison situations.

But er, life in prison ever more so, as an entire life of harshness would be torture...

Well, if someone killed some peoples family members, then the family probably wants them to be in some kind of torture (not my personal view, just the general consensus). Besides, no one ever said prison was a walk in the park.

Err, torture IS unethical.

I never said it was, just that some people believe that murderers should be in some sort of severe punishment. I don't agree with it, I personally think americans (some) need to learn to forgive people.

Modern America isn't based on forgiveness. It's based on revenge.

What do you base that on? I don;t agree or disagree, just curious.

Err, the legal system I mean.

Capital punishment isn't logical. In fact, so much so to the extent that if you look up "Logical fallacies" on the internet, Capital Punishment gets a mention under most of them. How is it logical?

The problem is that conservatism goes with tradition over logic, reasoning that there's a reason that there's an unforeseen people used to do it that way.

But you're ignoring the fact that killing someone and calling it justified, legal, and proud is disgustingly deceitful and sends out a horrible message. At least killing someone and not pretending like you're not a bastard is honest, and there's some trace of human sanity you can work with there.

Two of his appeals were denied, you do realize? And in over twenty years, he did change himself. Not completely, but at least he tried.

The Death penalty is not a deterrent. This was shown and proved earlier.

Rosalie, will you ever shut up about America!?!? It isn't that bad. Just because that we have things that you do not believe in here doesn't mean that it sucks. The death penalty is under extreme review here, and we are pretty much confirming to western European ideals. So please, shut up about America.

Rosalie, will you ever shut up about America!?!? It isn't that bad. Just because that we have things that you do not believe in here doesn't mean that it sucks. The death penalty is under extreme review here, and we are pretty much confirming to western European ideals. So please, shut up about America.

Wow, Mistle Rose, are you really Michael Moore?

Because you apparently hold all of the same opinions he does.

Also, you're onery and easily riled.

Perhaps locking is the only way to stop it. And Rosalie, perhaps I went overboard. I apoligize for offending you. Although I am still offended by your views of my country.

And I don't believe a thread needs to be locked because of one person(or, as some boards do, one person needs to be seriously punished because of one thread), if someone just tells everyone to calm down(esp. Lahi) it will be okay.

Wow, Mistle Rose, are you really Michael Moore?

Because you apparently hold all of the same opinions he does.

Enough of your rights are still taken away as a prisoner that I don't see how it could be a preferrable life to not being one.

I know this is offtopic, but I feel compelled to defend Michael Moore. Sure, he does sometimes exaggerate things to an eye-rolling, obnoxious extent and can take things out of context in a similar way, but I've yet to hear any of the basic facts against Bush in Fahrenehit 9/11, for instance, convincingly refuted as false.

We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic.

"Moore thus creates the false impression that the networks withdrew their claim about Gore winning Florida when they heard that Fox said that Bush won Florida."

"How did Bush win Florida? 'Second, make sure the chairman of your campaign is also the vote count woman.' Actually Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris (who was Bush's Florida co-chair, not "the chairman") was not the 'vote count woman.' Vote counting in Florida is performed by the election commissioners in each of Florida's counties. The Florida Secretary of State merely certifies the reported vote. The office does not count votes."

"Castigating the allegedly lazy President, Moore says, 'Or perhaps he just should have read the security briefing that was given to him on August 6, 2001 that said that Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America by hijacking airplanes.'

Moore supplies no evidence for his assertion that President Bush did not read the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Brief. Moore’s assertion appears to be a complete fabrication."

"You mock the 'coalition of the willing' by only showing the tiny countries that have voiced support. But you leave out England, Spain, Italy and Poland. Why?

Moore: 'This film exists as a counterbalance to what you see on cable news about the coalition. I’m trying to counter the Orwellian nature of the Big Lie, as if when you hear that term, the ‘coalition,’ that the whole world is behind us.'"

"Moore mocks Attorney General John Ashcroft by pointing out that Ashcroft once lost a Senate race in Missouri to a man who had died three weeks earlier. "Voters preferred the dead guy," Moore says, delivering one of the film’s biggest laugh lines.

It’s a cheap shot. When voters in Missouri cast their ballots for the dead man, Mel Carnahan, they knew they were really voting for Carnahan’s very much alive widow, Jean. The Democratic governor of Missouri had vowed to appoint Jean to the job if Mel won."

"Moore wraps up the 'vacation' segment: 'It was a summer to remember. And when it was over, he left Texas for his second favorite place.' The movie then shows Bush in Florida. Actually, he went back to Washington, where he gave a speech on August 31."

At the end of F911 Michael Moore quotes Condoleeza Rice as saying, “Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11.” As usual, just like he did with the Charlton Heston speech in BFC, Mike plays fast and loose with the truth through the world of editing.

Pretty damning stuff, isn’t it? But that was the truncated, Michael Moore version. Now for the full, unexpurgated quote:

“Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York.”

Well that’s a different quote, Mike. So why the editing?