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What religion do you partake in (if any)?
http://forum.hrwiki.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2113		 Page 2 of 8
Author:  Didymus [ Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:36 pm ]
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"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"

(a rock hits ThatGoblin in the head)

"INTERRUPTORJONES!!"

On a serious note, I think I can offer an analogy from personal experience that might shed some light on this whole thing:

As most of you know, I work in a nursing home. Well, many of the residents there are separated from their families. Every now and then I get to hear some lonely elderly lady complain about how her son never visits her. To her, it doesn't matter what kind of work that son does, or whether he's out doing any good deeds or not, mostly because she doesn't see any of them. All she's concerned about is that he never visits.

I think most people are kind of like that son: to them, God is just some old grandparent to be shoved out of sight into some nursing home, only to be visited whenever we feel like it. We think that if we've got all the rest of our life straightened out, that God doesn't care whether we visit him or not.

But from God's perspective, our primary duty in life is toward him. That's why the first three commandments concern our relationship with him. It's not that good deeds aren't important, but rather that God wants us to have an intimate relationship with him.

There is a story in the Bible about Martha and Mary, two sisters who were close friends with Jesus. Jesus came to visit them one day. Martha spent all day working in the kitchen, while Mary actually went and spent some time with Jesus in the living room. Martha complained that Mary was being a lazy slob, to which Jesus replied, "Martha, you worry too much, but Mary's doing what's really important."

All people need God. It's just that most people don't recognize that need. As St. Augustine pointed out, "Thou hast made us for thyself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee." The simple truth is this: without a relationship with God, you are not fulfilling the purpose for which he created you.

Now do you need to go to church to have a relationship with God? That I'm not sure of. But it seems to me that, if we have such an intimate relationship with God, then we will want to belong to his family, to be in community with others who also have a relationship with God. We can also commune with God in a life of prayer (assuming that this is a real life of prayer, and not just an excuse not to go to church). But it is in the Word and the Sacraments that God reveals himself to us, so I find it difficult to imagine a child of God not wanting to be a part of that.

To sum up,

1. God wants people to have an intimate relationship with him
2. People who do not are not fulfilling the very purpose for which he created them
3. Church is the family of God, a community which can strengthen the bonds of intimacy between God and man
(at least as long as it is fulfilling the purpose for which God created it--admitted, that doesn't always happen the way it should).

Now, if you don't believe in God, or don't believe that he cares to have an intimate relationship with you, then of course none of this will make any sense. But it is the Christian message, and I for one live by it.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful. It is not my intention to say, "If you don't go to church, you'll go to hell," but rather to help those of you who do not to understand our reasons for believing this is important.
Author:  thefreakyblueman [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:12 am ]
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Discount Brick wrote:
You want to risk it, fine with me. :p

What's there to risk? I mean, really, your argument is absolutely stating that you (the Christian religion) are the only correct thing, but hey, I can think that too. Say I have a religion called Muffinism, and if you don't do exactly what it says, then you're tortured by rabid monkeys in the afterlife. Now, I say, "Why be Christian if you're going to be tortured by rabid monkeys? Why risk it?". See my point? There may be a chance that Christianity is the right way to go, but I don't think so, and it's only one out of hundreds of religions and the possible truth of Atheism.
Author:  Evin290 [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:45 am ]
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Why would God create us for the only purpose of us pleasing him? Don't you think he had something bigger in mind?
Author:  ramrod [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:39 am ]
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Thank you Evin for helping me out.

I'm not infalliable, I know that. No-one on this world right now is. We all make mistakes. We all have our beliefs about certain things. We are all unique. What I said earlier might be wrong, it might be right, I might not even make any sense. That the thing with the afterlife, we don't know until we die, and then we can't tell others about it. (I'm saying any normal person, not Jesus)

What I base my belief on is the Bible, my Priest, and what my mind says to me. I'm using parts of the Bible that I think are really improtant to me.

But tell me this, who's right? Am I right? Are you right? Is the Pope right? What if two people, both of who are very close to God, disagree with something? Who's right? What if they're between a Catholic and a Baptist? A Muslim and a Jew? A Bhuddist and a Hinduist?
Author:  Evin290 [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:28 am ]
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That's the problem: there's no way to know who's right. The only safe thing is to assume that everybody's wrong, but that's not very fulfilling. As long as you believe something with all of your heart, it's correct to you, it doesn't have to be correct to anybody else.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:49 am ]
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evin290 wrote:
Why would God create us for the only purpose of us pleasing him? Don't you think he had something bigger in mind?

What could possibly be bigger than God?

Oh, and incidentally, I do not think that "pleasing God" in any way excludes doing good to our fellow men. After all, Matthew 25 makes it very clear that God takes it personally when we neglect people in need.

But here is another thought I've had. I've tried to figure out how to express it, but it's been hard. Anyway, here goes. What if the deeds that most people consider "good" are simply the bare minimum of what it means to act like a decent human being? I mean, helping your friends in their time of need is a good thing, of course, but everybody does that (except maybe the most psychopathic people among us, but do they really have friends?). Opening doors for people and helping little old ladies across the street used to be considered common courtesy. If good deeds earned us God's favor (not saying that they do), then I suspect that things like dedicating your life to feeding the homeless or helping the sick would be the kinds of things God is looking for.

But God offers us his favor as a free gift. He doesn't expect anything in return for it, except that we should spend some time with him. Why is that so difficult for us to understand? Heck, I forget that myself sometimes.
Author:  Evin290 [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:53 am ]
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I didn't mean something bigger than God. I meant something bigger than "pleasing God." Something bigger than "pleasing God" would be "fulfilling His purpose for us" which we don't know of... hm... Whatever his purpose is for us, I'm pretty sure it's not just for each of us to acknowledge Him and live by His rules. He HAS to have a higher purpose than that... hm...
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:02 am ]
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But again, I have to ask the question, what could be bigger than that? To sum it up, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." What could be more important than this?
Author:  Evin290 [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:10 am ]
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I know that loving God is important for US to do, but what I'm saying is that there's got to be more of a reason that God created us other than just to love Him, right?
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:25 am ]
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I'm having a hard time imagining what that could be.

BTW, just for clarification, I do think he wants us to love other people, too. That's the second part of the Great Command (which I cited above).
Author:  Evin290 [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:37 am ]
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I don't know what it is, I just think that there is one.
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:40 am ]
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Well, if you ever discover it, let me know. That way I can get my parishioners in on the ground floor.
Author:  Evin290 [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:41 am ]
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Didymus wrote:
Well, if you ever discover it, let me know. That way I can get my parishioners in on the ground floor.

I thought sarcasm was supposed to be in red text... hm...
Author:  Didymus [ Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:45 am ]
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Actually, it's supposed to look like this:

Code:
[sarcasm]InterruptorJones is SOOOO cool![/sarcasm]


But in all seriousness, I wasn't trying to be mean by saying that. In fact, if that one thing makes you ask the question, "What DID God create me for?" well, then I can't fault you for asking.

Something else that might be helpful, Evin, would be if you ask him yourself. Ask him bluntly and sincerely, and tell him not to give you any crap, either. I can't say for sure, but he might just answer. I can't say whether you'd like the answer or not. I've sometimes found that I didn't like the answers he gave me. But I think he prefers that we challenge him head on rather than merely tiptoe around him as though he's not there.
Author:  kerrek_slaya [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:04 am ]
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evin290 wrote:
Why would God create us for the only purpose of us pleasing him? Don't you think he had something bigger in mind?


that's a very good point. i couldnt even think of a good comeback. all he wnts us to do is to make heaven here on Earth. However, I don't know why he couldn't do that himself...

and for the "saved" thing, that's what the christian religion calls it, so no offense or anything, but whether you like it or not, that's what it's gonna remain. Being a Christian, my pastor talks about it all the time.
Author:  Evin290 [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:12 am ]
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kerrek_slaya wrote:
and for the "saved" thing, that's what the christian religion calls it, so no offense or anything, but whether you like it or not, that's what it's gonna remain. Being a Christian, my pastor talks about it all the time.

I don't really know why I hate it so much, it just irks me. It's one of those things, you know? I mean, if someone doesn't believe what somebody else does, it doesn't necessarily mean they need to be saved. I hate to be cliched here, but I'm gonna look up "saved" in the dictionary.
The guys who wrote the dictionary wrote:
a. To rescue from harm, danger, or loss.
b. To set free from the consequences of sin; redeem.

Neither of which fit what most people say when people religiously need to be "saved." The latter makes more sense in the situation, but isn't necessarily "setting someone free from the consequences of sin" by changing their religious beliefs to fit your own. If someone is an atheist, and they lead perfectly good lives and they're happy without God in their life, why is there a need to "save" them?
Author:  kerrek_slaya [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:27 am ]
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by 'save' they mean saved, well, basically, saved from not going to hell. meaning god says (in the bible) you must believe in him AND jesus, and you're saved and get basically a (almost) free ride to heaven. (and just because you're saved doesn't mean you cant still prevent yourself from going you-know-where.)
Author:  Evin290 [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:31 am ]
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That's just it. You don't KNOW that heaven and hell are real, that what you BELIEVE. If someone doesn't believe in it, and they don't think that they have anything to worry about, what would be the point in trying to "save" them?

Also, are you saying that someone who believes in a religion that does not worship Jesus can't go to heaven?
Author:  Didymus [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:39 am ]
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According to Christianity, ALL PEOPLE need to be saved from the consequences of sin, redeemed. But this can only take place in the forgiveness and reconciliation in Jesus Christ, not in living a good life.

This goes back to what we were discussing earlier about God creating us to love him. A person who does not love him, or refuses to do so is not living within his will, no matter how outwardly good they may appear.

I would suggest, Evin, that at this one point you do not seem to understand Christian thinking: the Bible clearly tells us that God's generosity is what protects us from the consequences of sin and reconciles us to him. Living a good life does not do it. Furthermore, if someone refuses to be reconciled, then they continue to live outside God's will and have no forgiveness.

It really is pointless to argue about this particular point. God's generosity is the central point of Christian theology. You're not likely to win many arguments by appealing to an abstract concept of "a good life." Besides, I suspect that if God judged based on "a good life," I suspect that only saints and apostles would even come close. I suspect that God's idea of "a good life" is much more intense than what most of us could handle, or would even want to.
Author:  homestarman17 [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:05 am ]
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[quote="Discount Brick"]Well, I'm christian

For you atheist out there, it's better to believe in jesus and god, and maybe go to heaven, than it is to not believe in heaven, god, or jesus and risk going to hell.[/quote]

That's what I always say. It is very true also.
Author:  Naked_Lunch [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:46 am ]
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thefreakyblueman wrote:
What's there to risk? I mean, really, your argument is absolutely stating that you (the Christian religion) are the only correct thing, but hey, I can think that too. Say I have a religion called Muffinism, and if you don't do exactly what it says, then you're tortured by rabid monkeys in the afterlife. Now, I say, "Why be Christian if you're going to be tortured by rabid monkeys? Why risk it?". See my point? There may be a chance that Christianity is the right way to go, but I don't think so, and it's only one out of hundreds of religions and the possible truth of Atheism.

I believe that is an accurate response to your above post.
Author:  Evin290 [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:48 am ]
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homestarman17 wrote:
Discount Brick wrote:
Well, I'm christian
For you atheist out there, it's better to believe in jesus and god, and maybe go to heaven, than it is to not believe in heaven, god, or jesus and risk going to hell.


That's what I always say. It is very true also.

That quote that you quoted is just begging to be made fun of...

Anywhoots

Didymus: It is my personal belief that God doesn't bring to heaven those who care about or even acknowledge his existence. I believe that since we are all God's creations, being good to each other is being good to Him. (Oh, and I don't care if the Christian church backs me up on this one, this is my personal beleif :p )
Author:  Didymus [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:48 pm ]
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Again, I'm challenging the notion of "being good". What if the minimum of "being good" is the kind of life that Mother Theresa lived? And the kind of "good life" that most people live (i.e., not really hurting anybody, but just kind of existing) is not enough? How much is "good enough?" That's my question.
Author:  ModestlyHotGirl [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:59 pm ]
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Has anyone ever read Life of Pi? It's by Yann Martel, a Canadian author, but it won the Booker Prize (a major Commonwealth literary prize) so maybe some of you Yankees have heard of it. It's a great story about an Indian teenager who is shipwrecked and survives for months at sea. I won't go into details in case someone wants to read it, but the point is that it doesn't matter what the true story is; all that matters is the message behind it. Appropriately, Pi practices Hinduism, Islam and Christianity simultaneously, and it's this open spirituality that keeps him going throughout his ordeal. He feels the same way about religion: it doesn't matter which is "true" or "right", but what you take from it. I just thought that was a nice idea.
Author:  Evin290 [ Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:35 pm ]
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I loved Life of Pi. That was one of my all-time favorites. The ending is sad though...

Didymus wrote:
Again, I'm challenging the notion of "being good". What if the minimum of "being good" is the kind of life that Mother Theresa lived? And the kind of "good life" that most people live (i.e., not really hurting anybody, but just kind of existing) is not enough? How much is "good enough?" That's my question.

My point wasn't that there was a certain amount of good you had to do, my point was that, in my personal opinion, it matters more how you treat others than how you act religiously.
Author:  Plaster-Man [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:00 am ]
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Honestly I haven't decided. I have some of problems with Christianity and Judism and I don't know alot about Hinduism and Buddhism.

I've really thought about Buddhism though. I like how its only a moral religion, and not a creationist one.
Author:  Didymus [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:24 am ]
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Strictly speaking, Buddhism isn't really a religion. It's a philosophy. The basic idea is that, to escape suffering and achieve enlightenment, you must rid yourself of desire. Personally, I believe just the opposite: in order to be a complete human being, you must face suffering and properly focus your desires.

The whole thing of religious pluralism has a certain appeal (it certainly seems to solve a few apologetics problems). However, God himself does seem to have some definite ideas about what is good religion and what is not. "I am the Lord your God: You shall have no other gods." And "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no one comes to God except by me." It may seem selfish on his part, but who are we to argue with the Creator? Actually, it's not even selfish. If there is only one true God, do you think he wants us chasing after shadows and lies when we could have the real thing?

Evin: I understand that you're not addressing the question of "how much is good enough." But I am. If God does indeed judge people based on how good they are, then don't you think it's important to know the answer to that question?

We Christians trust in God's generosity. In other words, God forgives us not because we deserve it, but simply because he is kind. But he does not want us trusting in ourselves and thinking that we don't need him.

That's why I argue that God doesn't merely judge on good works or living a good life. The example we have of a good life is Jesus' own, one which is characterized by endless self-giving to others. I think God would have us look at his own life to determine what a good life should look like (although I really hate that whole WWJD thing for some reason, it applies). In other words, I think that God does not want us to be nice just to our friends. He wants us to be nice to our enemies. He doesn't just want us to help our friends in need. He also wants us to help complete strangers. He doesn't just want us to give to people who deserve it. He wants us to be generous to people who don't deserve it.
Author:  Beyond the Grave [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:45 pm ]
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I was baptised both catholic and protestant.
Author:  porplemontage [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:50 pm ]
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I'm Lutheran.
Author:  Didymus [ Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:22 pm ]
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Lutherans in the HIZZOUSE! Go Marty! Go Marty!

*********************************************

Now I think I've got the language I need to communicate what I'm thinking:

We Christians believe in God's UNCONDITIONAL love. This means that God loves us whether we deserve it or not
St. Paul wrote:
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8).


So if you argue that God loves people who "live a good life" or are "basically good people," then what you're doing is making God's love CONDITIONAL (i.e., that he only loves people who are good enough). And here's the problem again as I see it: how much is good enough to deserve God's Conditional love?

But what about the drug addict who spends his entire life trying to break away from his addiction, and ends up getting killed on the streets? Or the murderer in prison who suddenly comes to see the horror of his crimes and weeps over them, even though he can do nothing to change the past? What about the woman who has to work in a strip club because that's the only way she can feed her children? If God's love is Conditional, then there are simply too many people who need it but will never get it because they are not what we call "basically good." That is why I challenge the whole notion of God's love being conditional (that and it is not biblical).

That is why the Pharisee in that story was wrong. He believed that God's love was Conditional. What's more, he believed that God owed him (i.e., that he was "good enough," whereas the tax collector wasn't). But it was the tax collector who found mercy. Why? Because he realized he wasn't "good enough" and accepted God's Unconditional love.
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