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Jerome wrote:

Take a look at this page: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=suicide Believe it or not, this page actually stopped a lot of people from committing suicide when they read it and realised how stupid they were being.

That stopped people from killing themselves? Somehow I don't think that's true.

man thats just sad. its so sad, im not gonna try to put anything funny in this post. in my view, you would go to purgetory.

I cannot answer that question. I do not know the condition of your friend's soul at the time of his death. Nor does the Bible itself give an ultimatum on it. I do not believe that God's mercy will exclude a person on the sole basis of a suicide, though (although I wouldn't push that point with someone considering suicide at the time). Most of the arguments are based on prohibitions of murder, but even murder can be forgiven (just ask King David and the Apostle Paul, both murderers who repented and were forgiven).

I am deeply sorry about your friend. I cannot imagine what grief you must be feeling right now. Just know this: whatever else, God himself, the same one who wept at Lazarus' tomb, also feels your grief.

...Make use of the life bestowed upon him.

well if you are a christian its breaking the 10 commandments, so you would go to hell. This is regardless of weather you are in yor right mind or not. Well thats at least what I think.

And, DarkSide, I would challenge your understanding of God's compassion. Do you really think God has no compassion on those who are suffering such torment of soul that they would end their own lives? Sure, I understand God is not pleased with it, but do you honestly believe he does not feel the pain of those who feel abandoned and alone (Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani)? Do you honestly believe he does not shed tears for those who are burdened with guilt and shame? Do you honestly believe that God is so hard-hearted that he would not welcome one of his own children home, just because they decided come home earlier than he wanted them to? It is this kind of thinking that makes me glad Luther did start the Reformation.

Don't get me wrong, kids. God doesn't want us to end our lives at all. But I do think we need to remember his compassion for us - compassion that motivated him to lay down his life for us.

yes, god will forgive us if we ask for forgivness, but you can't really ask for forgiveness if you are already dead and in hell being punished for killing yourself. Also why was old testiment god vengeful?

that old testiment god question was supposed to be off the topic.

Quote:

You mean the same God of whom the Psalmists say, "His mercy endures forever," and "gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love"? Are you sure you've actually read the Old Testament thoroughly enough?

Forgiveness isn't about what you do. It's about what Christ has done for you. Your view of Confession and Absolution is rather legalistic. So let me ask you the question: have you confessed every wrong deed you ever did to the Lord? Are you absolutely sure you haven't forgotten one or two? If so, how do you think the Lord will respond?

Again, I think you have not studied enough Scripture to adequately formulate a theology on this subject. Please come back when you've got some biblical support for your position.

Author:	Code J [ Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:18 pm ]
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Aw....Group hug! But we're all behind your back, Dormar. Well, I'm not sure what to think about suicide. I think that in some situations, suicide may be the best thing to do. But that's only if you're barely surviving (physically and emotionally), life is terrible, there's no signs of getting better, and there is no one who cares/loves for you. I'm still thinking about that, though.

Author:	penguinfunfun [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:05 am ]
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first off,soory for your friend ramrod. secondly, does anyone know what other religiouns standpoints are on suicide?(not christian) there is no mention of purgatory in the bible last of all, what is toast paint

Author:	IantheGecko [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:41 am ]
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Toast paint means let's get back on topic. Which we must do. In Buddhism, the first precept is to restrain from the destruction of life. This includes your own, but some oppressed Buddhists, such as those in Tibet, believe in an "honorable" suicide much like seppuku. Hindus believe that killing your own body is just as bad as destroying another's. Any kind of violent death, including suicide, results in becoming a ghost. However, suicide by fasting is considered acceptable under certain circumstances. According to Islam, suicide is forbidden in all circumstances even in war, and is also forbidden by Jewish law. Thank you, Wikipedia.

Author:	Jerome [ Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:36 am ]
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What's Her Face wrote: Jerome wrote: Take a look at this page: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=suicide Believe it or not, this page actually stopped a lot of people from committing suicide when they read it and realised how stupid they were being. That stopped people from killing themselves? Somehow I don't think that's true. Yes, it's true. Observe: http://www.maddox.xmission.com/s.txt

Author:	IantheGecko [ Sat May 06, 2006 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:	stupid, stupid me.
I just attempted suicide a couple days ago, in a stupid way and for a stupid reason. The forms & stuff for our annual drama retreat were due yesterday. Thursday I remembered that, & sprung it on my dad to fill out the forms & pay the $110 check. He got really mad at me, so I went into my room. I opened a tube of toothpaste & squirted 2 or so inches into my mouth. I thought it would kill me, because it says "Do not swallow". But what I did next could very well have killed me. I have a little bottle of Visine Tears; it says "If swallowed, call Poison Control immediately". So I took out a little drop & swallowed that. I felt like crap yesterday as a result of this, both mentally & physically. I kept having to go to the bathroom, I felt weird all over my body, & I thought I was going to collapse at any second. I had chills for a couple hours, too. So last night I prayed to God that I had done one of the stupidest things I had ever done, & I asked His forgiveness; I could have died. Thankfully, I'm feeling a lot better today. I just have a little stuffiness in my head. But I did make a really stupid choice, and I regret it so much. I really do need to see someone; it could get worse.

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Author:	Didymus [ Sat May 06, 2006 8:29 pm ]
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As harsh as this may sound, I certainly hope that the Lord has taught you a lesson: in His time, not yours. I had heard that Visine caused extreme stomach problems, and for that reason you shouldn't take it. A pilot I bet a while back told me that stewardesses will put a few drops in someone's drink when they're annoyed with them. As for your reasons, I still have paperwork for the Seminary and for the Synod that have been due for a while, but with everything that's been happening the past few months, I just haven't worried too much about them. We all make mistakes, and people we care about sometimes get angry with us (believe me, one of my parishioners in Cleveland is really ticked at me about Holy Communion; funny thing is, I didn't even do anything wrong - he had just misheard something I had said and got mad about it). Just remember this: God allows us to be imperfect just to show us how much we need to rely on him, and that so we will learn that we CAN rely on him. As he told St. Paul, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in your weakness."

Author:	IantheGecko [ Sat May 06, 2006 10:05 pm ]
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Thanks, Didy. I have had to run to bathroom kinda often for the past day and a half, but other than that I feel better.

Author:	What's Her Face [ Sat May 06, 2006 10:05 pm ]
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My heart goes out to you, Gecko man. It's good that you've got your faith, but might really help to talk to someone or attend a suicide-prevention group near you. Believe me, it can really help to share your troubles in an open discussion. Whatever you do, don't ever think it's hopeless, it's not. It can be helped, if you take a leap of faith.

Author:	IantheGecko [ Sat May 06, 2006 10:10 pm ]
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Thanks, WHF. I'm suppposed to go see a Christian counselor really soon, but we have to go through all the insurance crap.

Author:	Rocoramore [ Sat May 27, 2006 12:18 am ]
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Choc-o-Lardiac Arrest wrote: man thats just sad. its so sad, im not gonna try to put anything funny in this post. in my view, you would go to purgetory. That's wwhat I think too.

Author:	Marshmallow Roast [ Sat May 27, 2006 1:10 am ]
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I've been having "thoughts" again lately. I don't have anything planned, don't worry. But it hasn't crossed my mind since I was going to do it a few months ago.

Author:	Alexander [ Sat May 27, 2006 1:28 am ]
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Marshmallow. Is something currently, the matter? If you would like to share it privetly in a PM I could do that with you.

Author:	HHFOV [ Sat May 27, 2006 1:29 am ]
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Didymus wrote: I cannot answer that question. I do not know the condition of your friend's soul at the time of his death. Nor does the Bible itself give an ultimatum on it. I do not believe that God's mercy will exclude a person on the sole basis of a suicide, though (although I wouldn't push that point with someone considering suicide at the time). Most of the arguments are based on prohibitions of murder, but even murder can be forgiven (just ask King David and the Apostle Paul, both murderers who repented and were forgiven). I am deeply sorry about your friend. I cannot imagine what grief you must be feeling right now. Just know this: whatever else, God himself, the same one who wept at Lazarus' tomb, also feels your grief. Yes, but we must also keep in mind that suicide is the ultimate act of disrespect of God. It means you don't appreciate the life God gave you; That you don't think his choice for your situation was accurate. The Lord works in mysterious ways; It may seem as if there is no way out of your problems, but there always, always, is. I've been in pretty bad situations before, but I never contemplated suicide because I knew that once I turned to God, he would give me a good way out of my problems. In conclusion, I'm not a biblical scholar here, but I really think suicide is a pretty dang bad thing to do since it does not... Some bible verse wrote: ...Make use of the life bestowed upon him.

Author:	Didymus [ Sat May 27, 2006 1:31 am ]
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I, for one, am glad you've thus far chosen to remain with us, MR. I know you've had some really tough times, particularly with your mom, and I'll bet all of it just makes you want to give up (goodness knows I've felt like giving up myself). Please, hang in there. I think I speak for the whole forum (except maybe Funky - but then again), we'd all miss you. I will keep you in my prayers, MR. Oh, and if you feel like sharing, I'm always here. Of course, if you'd rather share with someone a little closer in age and gender, I'd think Alec would be a great listener. She's shown lots of compassion toward me these past few weeks. Froggy, I completely understand your argument. However, you might also consider God's compassion. After all, without it, even the best of us could never enjoy eternal life with him, and unless you can show me that God has no compassion on those who take their own lives, then I cannot concur with your reasoning.

Author:	Steve [ Mon May 29, 2006 3:51 am ]
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If your friend, Ramrod, lived a good life (despite the way they died), than rest asured, for acording to my beliefs: your friend sits in the kingdom of Heavan as we speak. If not, than the worst that could happen is that they live another life on Earth. Suffer the pain of another life time. Maybe they'll come-back as a rich person, or a bum, or a gym teacher. Either way, they won't truly suffer.

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Author:	Alexander [ Sat May 27, 2006 2:57 am ]
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To FrogOfValue: People might commit suicide for various reasons. Showing disrespect for God is not always, or sometimes never, the main reason. There have been many times in my life where I've felt like the only option left for me was death. This was mostly because of my personal sin. I felt as if no longer existing would be far better then living with myself. I would also feel like this when I was (and sometimes currently) afraid of growing up and living by myself. I always feel I'll never be able to support myself and end up starving. The only reason I never did commit was because of my immense fear of the pain before death. If it wasn't for that, I don't know if I would be here right now. But I don't support or even suggest it. There are people in this world who do care for you. Even when you don't think so. Whenever I feel lonely, I usually write or visit the Wiki to feel known again. I also have other means as well. That's how I try to escape from my fears.

Author:	Didymus [ Sat May 27, 2006 3:08 am ]
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I've always been too much of a fighter to consider suicide an option. To me, it's the easy way out. I'd rather fight my fears and face pain than to take the easy way out. But that doesn't mean I never feel like giving up. Why, just this past week, I felt like giving up. My step-father's approaching death, some controversies in the church, and various other things, all just made me want to just throw in the towel. But I hung on. And that's not even the worst I ever felt. Three years ago at Seminary, I thought I wasn't going to make it through. But here I am, soon to be ordained. We all walk through dark valleys. Goodness knows I've faced some. But there is a Good Shepherd, and he will get us through them. Not around them, but through them. He lets us face the pain, the sorrow, the despair - he's felt them all, too, you know (John 11:34-36, Matthew 26:37-38, Matthew 27:46) - but he's still there, gently guiding us through. Why? Because he's been there himself. Hang in there, peoples, and know that the Lord is with you. His peace, which surpasses all human understanding, guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

Author:	IantheGecko [ Mon May 29, 2006 4:32 am ]
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I don't believe in reincarnation; the Bible says you go to one of 2 places: Heaven, or Hell. There isn't an in-between.

Author:	Didymus [ Mon May 29, 2006 4:41 am ]
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Reincarnation is not consistent with the Christian faith. The Scriptures say that the dead will be resurrected on the Last Day. Now, if reincarnation were true, then what happens to those dead who's souls transmigrated? In other words, in that case, a single soul would end up having to exist in multiple bodies. Steve, I appreciate you trying to give some comfort to Ramrod. Really I do. I'm just not convinced that your reasoning is correct.

Author:	Steve [ Mon May 29, 2006 1:34 pm ]
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And that is your opinion, and you have every right to it. After all, you devoted your life to it. I have my beliefs, and you have yours, but we must remember to use them for only good and not persecution. We christians have done that to one another for way too long. I don't happen to take the Bible as a holy scripture defining how to live, and what events accured in history. I take more of a "I need not any proof that God and Christ's word is true, for my very existance is all the proof I need." The bible holds no relevince to my religion, except for the Gospels. But this is a conversation for another thread. Let's not tarnish this thread, which is to be used to comfort Ramrod and give him perspective, with my ranting about things I will never convise people to understand nor will be convinsed of otherwise. I hope I was a hint of comfort for you Ramrod. That's all I wish to do.

Author:	DarkSideOfTheSchwartz [ Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:32 am ]
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well if you are a christian its breaking the 10 commandments, so you would go to hell. This is regardless of weather you are in yor right mind or not. Well thats at least what I think.

Author:	ramrod [ Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:39 am ]
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DarkSideOfTheSchwartz wrote: well if you are a christian its breaking the 10 commandments, so you would go to hell. This is regardless of weather you are in yor right mind or not. Well thats at least what I think. I remember hearing that in a debate a while bck. But from a Catholic point of view, if I remember right, Vatican II stated that when one commits suicide, they are not in the right mind. That is true. One isn't in the right state of mind. They don't care about anything anymore. It's all a void. To some, it seems like it's you versus God. It's God versus me, and he's winning.

Author:	Didymus [ Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:46 am ]
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And, DarkSide, I would challenge your understanding of God's compassion. Do you really think God has no compassion on those who are suffering such torment of soul that they would end their own lives? Sure, I understand God is not pleased with it, but do you honestly believe he does not feel the pain of those who feel abandoned and alone (Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani)? Do you honestly believe he does not shed tears for those who are burdened with guilt and shame? Do you honestly believe that God is so hard-hearted that he would not welcome one of his own children home, just because they decided come home earlier than he wanted them to? It is this kind of thinking that makes me glad Luther did start the Reformation. Don't get me wrong, kids. God doesn't want us to end our lives at all. But I do think we need to remember his compassion for us - compassion that motivated him to lay down his life for us.

Author:	Capt. Ido Nos [ Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:47 am ]
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DarkSideOfTheSchwartz wrote: well if you are a christian its breaking the 10 commandments, so you would go to hell. This is regardless of weather you are in yor right mind or not. Well thats at least what I think. Well, almost. Yes, it would be breaking one of the ten commandments, regardless of one being a Christian or not, but if one is in fact a Christian, one would not neccesarily go to Hell. Romans 5:8 says "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." This means that when Jesus died it paid for every sin we ever have commited and will commit. Accepting Christ is also accepting His gift of grace, and so covers over all of our wrongdoings. Now, about the fact of being in the right mind, I'm not sure on that, but that is what I know.

Author:	Didymus [ Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:56 am ]
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Quote: yes, god will forgive us if we ask for forgivness, but you can't really ask for forgiveness if you are already dead and in hell being punished for killing yourself. Also why was old testiment god vengeful? You mean the same God of whom the Psalmists say, "His mercy endures forever," and "gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love"? Are you sure you've actually read the Old Testament thoroughly enough? Forgiveness isn't about what you do. It's about what Christ has done for you. Your view of Confession and Absolution is rather legalistic. So let me ask you the question: have you confessed every wrong deed you ever did to the Lord? Are you absolutely sure you haven't forgotten one or two? If so, how do you think the Lord will respond? Again, I think you have not studied enough Scripture to adequately formulate a theology on this subject. Please come back when you've got some biblical support for your position.

Author:	ramrod [ Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:02 am ]
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DarkSideOfTheSchwartz wrote: that old testiment god question was supposed to be off the topic. But you still asked it, didn't you? He decided to answer it with precise thought and logic. Nothing against you, but he did support his argument.

Author:	AwPi [ Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:48 am ]
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Ramrod, I'm very sorry about your friend and will be praying for him. It must be hard to deal with a loss like that. Also, I'm kinda confused with the whole idea of purgatory. I would be very grateful if someone were to explain it to me.